Replies: 6 comments 29 replies
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the maximum number of votes a governor can cast equals the amount of ASASTATS officially allocated to their seat in the 1:1 ratio From the above, does that mean a governor's ASA Stats which was procured through buying is not included in such governor's voting power? |
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Okay, i understand better now. But, his question was whether Governor's ASA Stats which was procured through buying is included in such governor's voting power? And i think the answer to this should be NO |
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You're right, of course. The ASA Stats DAO governance votes are defined only in the official documents in this repository, respectively in the three documents so far, the Open Letter, Update 1 and Update 2. No other ASASTATS can count as votes, whichever way they are allocated to the governor's seat address. If your account holds no ASASTATS at all or it holds less than the amount allocated to you as governance votes, then the voting dApp should count the difference and assign no more than 75% of the votes difference, evaluating any other assets you have got in your account. If you have 500,000 votes and you have 200,000 ASASTATS and 50,000 AKITA INU under your account's control at the time of voting session, and let's say that 1 AKITA INU is worth 2 ASASTATS, then your votes will count as follows:
(as 50,000 AKITA INU covers 100,000 ASASTATS). |
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Okay.. With my previous question cleared, I think the percentage should be drawn from the participated votes. |
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I actually wanted to ask same question but now i understand it all. |
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So we have to define a quorum, how many votes DAO will need in order to sign a token allocation transaction. I suppose we can have an option to implement this functionality as a dynamic argument, for example we can define that the quorum for a transaction is 2/3 of the average of the total votes from the last 3 voting sessions. This topic is kind of separated from the base DAO voting dApp, as governors won't vote yes or no (or, btw, for one of the options - if we decide voting dApp will need that), they'll just sign a transaction and after quorum is reached the transaction will be sent to Mainnet. |
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Two concerns based on recently observed failings from an entity on Cosmos Network based on the Dao Dao model. Concern 1: don't set the initial quorum too high - otherwise attempts to do anything (even correcting bad voting mechanics in subsequent votes) can get trapped and repeatedly rejected due to lack of reaching quorum. I've observed quorums of 20-33% working well. An observation of a higher 67% quorum continues to cause utter gridlock...all proposals get rejected. Concern 2: clearly differentiate passing threshold to win relative to quorum threshold. For example, if a passing threshold is identified as 51% - then it should be 51% of the yes/no vote within the quorum (vs. absolute 51% of total possible governor votes). This may seem like an obvious statement, but I'm currently observing a DAO whither due to having both a 67% quorum threshold AND a 67% "absolute" passing threshold. This means that >67% have to show up plus vote yes/no. In a recent vote to try and change this, a 67% quorum was reached w/ 58% (of total votes) signaling YES, and 8.2% of total votes signaling NO, which was still rejected due to this broken mechanic. |
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I should emphasize that the existence of a quorum is a topic only if we decide to have allocation dependable on turnout. And again, that's related only to the allocation of ASASTATS from the official pools. For the normal/usual voting, as a member of the Team I will strongly support the initial ASC to define a winning/binding option to have 50% + 1 of turnout votes, with a quorum of 3 ASASTATS in total. It is worth mentioning that the Team will probably support 2/3 of casted votes as binding in both cases (of the total votes or of the quorum) for the tokens allocation. |
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Hi, you should try https://demo.vote-coin.com/testnet/51768942/vote/overview and tell me what else you need.. :) |
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ok, i get your point, but from the discussion in this thread it seem you want to make decision on how the dao will work.. for example what should be a quorum for "Dao Dao model" .. i bring alternative.. i say we have voting system where everybody can manage their daos in efficient way.. you could do even every commit to github to be processed by the dao question, you could require all payments done from the DAO account to be validated by the voting decision.. what vote coin offers what on other chains or other projects cannot offer is:
Yes, you can set the quorum as DAO for the message to be passed, and it is your decision. From the vote coin calculation you get the result how many coins has voted. If you set quorum to be 50%+, i predict that DAO would not make any decision .. simply because some people just hold, some assets are locked in amm pools, some assets are locked at the exchange cold wallets and so on.. Notice that neither algorand governance has more than 50% of all algos in place.. but regarding your YAGNI principle.. try to tell us what you need first.. :) |
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I'll check your points from the comment tomorrow probably, meanwhile:
I said that I will strongly support that 50%+1 vote of those who voted should define the outcome. So if 0.000001% of the total allocated ASASTATS/votes gets the majority then the winning option will pass.
We are ASA Stats, it is implied by the definition that we count those votes too. :)
We need a discussion about what we need. Simple as that. I'll define absolutely nothing by myself. The only thing that is certain is that DAO will get custody over all the project resources in the next 20 months. We are here to define all the parts of that process so that the transition is reasonable and meaningful. The ideal and perfect outcome is that the last day of the ASA Stats Team's ownership of the project doesn't differ at all from the first day of the DAO's ownership phase. |
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For the last half of a year, we've been proposing, testing, implementing, changing and in many other means trying to find the way how the things should be done in ASA Stats. From day one, my intention as a founder was to implement and conduct a system that won't change once the DAO takes over. The plan is that only the final decision-making process changes, from what we have now where I on behalf of the Team have decided in the cases where there exist some doubts, to the phase where DAO governors will decide about such things. A perfect flow of the ASA Stats project in the DAO phase is that DAO never votes for anything! But, we don't live in a perfect world so we have to have a system that will be used for the cases when our public discussions bring no tangible outcome, in order to stop wasting everybody's time, prevent tensions, hear the voices of those who are not so eager to be involved in discussions, etc.
The nature of our project (We are ASA Stats, it is implied by the definition that we count those votes too. :)) forces us to use offchain data in the voting process. We don't know yet how it will be done, I'm going to give an example for the sake of confirmation that it's possible: one of the ways to implement it is to have an endpoint on ASA Stats that will be available to the dedicated clients in a Chainlink network and at the voting time the total votes count for each governor seat will be defined and accessible by our voting dApp.
It is still to be discussed would we ever need non-binary voting.
Afaic this is surely a functionality that is expected that our voting dApp should have.
No secure encryption is possible of the onchain data. We can implement such functionality as an option, but all of our marketing materials and documentation in such cases have to emphasize the fact that the securing information that way has only a psychological application.
Yes, we should try to minimize the cost but not at any cost. Pun intended. :) It is planned that all the transactions for the voting and funds allocation transactions are sponsored by the DAO and other ASA Stats pools. Dunno yet about the actual process in the future, but before transferring the custody to the DAO, the Team will transfer some amount of Algo to every governor's seat. |
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Regarding your statement.. "No secure encryption is possible of the onchain data" .. i think many people mainly in the blockchain industry would not agree with you.. :) encryption is the base of crypto Btw I always state that it is secure during the voting session.. btw the dao should reveal at the end of the voting session its encryption key so that it is auditable by everyone.. the security is there about the thing that if I dont want others to know how I vote, so that i do not affect the voting in progress.. in current legal democracies it plays quite significant role.. because if at the end of the day you would see that only 10 votes are required to have your governor/president or whoever it would motivate you to go to vote.. so the weight of people's decisions who vote early in the morning in elections would be significantly lower than those who vote at the end of the day |
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You haven't understood my sentence. The encryption is the basis because there are other mechanisms involved, like time. Given enough time and resources, every onchain information can be decrypted.
Again, I'm not against encrypting the governors' decisions, but we simply have to emphasize the fact that the encryption will be safe enough in the vast majority of cases, but not in 100% of cases. Someone who wants and has resources will find a way to break it. And this isn't something benign as someone can think. DAO can cast the vote for something like "Should we sell all the DAO's ASASTATS in the open market immediately after the votes are counted and Yes option wins?". Knowing such information can be much more valuable than the resources spent on getting it... |
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A big consideration we have found as we constructed our vote process is how the actual vote recording mechanism works and if the tokens stay in your wallet or need to be sent somewhere for a time. There seem to be three options we see and I think it would be great to discuss their pros and cons:
pros - votes are defined, easily counted and tracked. Provides use case for token. yieldly has recently launched their vote process using this method if we want to look to a pilot example.
pros - tokens stay in users wallet entire time. This is how the Algorand governance is managed
Pros - vote can be more versatile and flexible. Vote is easily tracked. Tokens stay in the users wallet limiting risk. Also voting token can take advantage of clawback and freeze powers Wageroo has recently launched our vote process using this method and I will keep the group updated on how it unfolds. Can see all our details at https://www.wageroo.org/dgo/season All options are subject to the question of who pays transaction fees so that is another consideration. |
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Thank you for taking a part in our discussion @Wageroo ! :) And about the topic you're referring to, that's among rare things in this DAO endeavor that is already defined at the very beginning in our Open Letter:
So it's basically your point 2. and we will discuss only the actual implementation for that, for example this comment part is about that:
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@Wageroo .. do you have some voting application already in place? is it also account based voting solution such as choice coin? you pay your dao token to specific address and later you receive it back? (app.wageroo.org) as DAO owner i would be quite sceptical to let my dao tokens to go away from my hands because if someone looses the secret key to some address my tokens might be lost for ever also there is no security in place.. if i do not want to show during the voting session how I vote, there is no way of doing it using this system also there is issue of concurrency.. dao cannot have 2 concurrent voting sessions at one time did you research also the vote coin standard? open specifications: https://www.vote-coin.com/specifications/introduction vote coin solution is similar to the algorand governance vote.. in fact it preceeds the algo governance ..
this solution is the most secure and most cost efficient.. with the politician delegation and regular voting the costs for voting falls only to the voting of the real voters which is fractional to the whole dao population voting, while it ensures the bigger dao population voting consensus @Wageroo I recommend you also to start using the vote coin standard for your DGO management .. |
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Thank you! So I did not realize that discussion was linked. I have reviewed and I still am not clear on how the governors actually cast votes. Is it just a zero value transaction and then the number of ASA STATS (or value of other tokens) is recorded in that moment? I think this is a good method and what algorand uses so definitely a benchmark. As we consider the quorum question as well we will want to be mindful to keep vote settlement time fast enough to limit the window to duplicate votes. This system also further necessitates the discussion around how to reward/punish voting which can continue in that thread |
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Bear in mind that in the Algorand community only one thing is for sure, and that's the fact that Scholtz will be pretty much always positioned against the opinion of majority. So, we have introduced this discussion in order to get some experiences and some suggestions what our future voting dApp would have, our voting dApp we don't have any clue about yet, and Scholtz of course takes position in such a discussion that only Vote Coin (his solution) is the only possible and meaningful solution for a voting dApp on Algorand. I have been absolutely certain that would happen, without any doubt, I even invited his wife to become a governor because As someone who obviously can cope with Ludovit, Mrs. Scholtz is our major chance to collaborate successfully with him.. Btw, I should say that ain't went well... But, still, Ludovit has experience in this topic and so the drawbacks are smaller than the eventual benefits if you ask me.
No duplication is possible in ASA Stats. There are governor seats and the count of their votes will be collected (probably) from a Chainlink bridge. |
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A separate thread I wanted to start is the question of reward for voters. We feel voting should receive some sort of reward outside of simple organizational participation to incentivize people to actually do it. I have seen projects do long term staking rewards for vote tokens, short term rewards simply for voting or motivated voters by giving a share in the project itself. At wageroo we opted for a bit of a blend of all 3 formats. What do others think on if voting should be rewarded and what method is best? |
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And i suggest regarding removing inactive governors, We can vote on that time ro time on Asastats Discord server, it can be done after every verified vote commencement |
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I don't really understand the question, but honesty for sure doesn't exist as an argument here. |
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That's completely opposite to everything we have tried to achieve with the ASA Stats project in general. We have involved governor seats and difference in votes weight exactly for the opposite purpose and to emphasize the fact there's no democracy-like system here in ASA Stats. No raid in any sense would ever make a difference. There's a total autocracy in the pre-DAO phase and an onchain voting based on the number of votes cast in the DAO phase. And that DAO voting is completely based on the funds a governor seat has at that time. |
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So given the incentive of being a partial owner of the organization I agree governors would want to vote and not need specific reward. The idea of punishing non participating governors is interesting. abstention should be an option but I fully agree governors should be expected to participate in some way. But how punishment looks in practice can have wide ranging implications. I cannot think of a business that punishes non participating shareholders or a project that dies this. Have you heard of this practice anywhere we could benchmark against? |
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I simply have to repeat that this topic was brought just as a counterpart of the fact that no mechanism for kicking governors out of the DAO exists in the pre-DAO phase, so to emphasize that I said something like "as contrary to the DAO phase when everything is possible". I strongly suggest that we leave aside this discussion for now as it's way, way ahead of all the other things we have to discuss before. |
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To @scholtz : As of today, our plan is that a centralized app for every voting session prepares Algorand boxes representing the ASA Stats DAO governors. The app to which the boxes belong would probably be our Permission ASC. The names of boxes will be constructed from governors' addresses and the box/name with zero first byte will hold the total amount of votes that the governor is able to cast. This last part is just a suggestion, feel free to suggest something else if you want to, but the usage of Algorand boxes filled with a centralized app is probably our best choice regarding the structure of our project and the deadline we have (the end of this year). The previous paragraph implies that the points from the initial post here aren't relevant anymore, therefore all the votes weights are calculated and prepared by the centralized app. Also, all the other technical aspects and specifics of the voting dApp and voting sessions are left to you to decide upon. There haven't been any improvements or findings in our discussions that are relevant, so it seems that our best option is that you as a person with experience in voting topics would find the best way for us to handle this. If you accept this proposal then there wouldn't be any other discussion about the topic besides a regular discussion about the requirements for us, as well as your conditions. |
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Nothing about ASA Stats DAO voting dApp has been defined yet and this thread represents a basis for the future development and documentation.
What we know can be summarized in the following points:
On top of those requirements that are defined in the Open Letter, this discussion also has to define the following:
The opening of this initial discussion is determined by willingness and competence to participate in it expressed by @scholtz in front of the Vote Coin, @Astylz and @Samuellyworld in front of the Choice Coin, Granger in front of the Wageroo DGO, and many other members of the ASA Stats and Algorand communities.
Every ASA Stats DAO governor, every member of the ASA Stats community, and every member of the Algorand community is welcomed and encouraged to participate in this discussion. The primary goal for the ASA Stats Team for the rest of the pre-DAO phase will be an enlargement of the number of governor seats and quality participation in this (and other) discussions would be one of the main deciding factors.
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