compare and contrast ztracker_mac with schismtracker

[coderofsalvation]

From schismtracker/schismtracker#312:

@esaruoho would you be interested in implementing these efforts into ztracker_mac as well?

ztracker_mac does not currently even compile. I was hoping to find someone who could help with it, but it seems that free devs that know macOS and MIDI and care about trackers are nonexistent :)

Good idea otherwise. I have a hard time believing that zTracker will ever make it to macOS unless if i can find and pay a developer to convert it from Windows to macOS.

[esaruoho]

@coderofsalvation hi, if you know someone who knows how to convert Windows apps that do MIDI, to macOS, then please mention them my way and I'll try to talk with them

[coderofsalvation]

Lets use this issue to explore some ztracker-meets-schismtracker directions:

Zooming out, ztracker arose from the lack of midi options of impulse tracker.
I have great memories of using ztracker with an akai sampler on my PC, while everybody else was complaining about poor midi-performance using their PC-version of Cubase (which was quite cpu-intensive).

I was just thinking..if shismtracker has some active macOS developers (who can build and use it), then what would it take to define ztracker features a a lua-script (and shoehorn it into schismtracker?).

I know that the trackerdevs are pretty conservative, however it's not a crazy idea to merge efforts.

[esaruoho]

@coderofsalvation that's interesting! there are definitely some things that zTracker does that are really crucial for workflows - such as being able to track a song, and then export it as .mid, load it into logic and continue on from there (think pads + processing, softsynths).

i have been working on zTracker only songs in 2004-2005 and also a mixture of zTracker -> to -> Logic, then also Ableton Live controlling zTracker (midi start stop).

I wouldn't mind being able to do that with SchismTracker, if it is possible. But I've never had jitter-free midi experiences with SchismTracker.

Currently I have a zTracker-capable Windows XP 32bit machine that also runs Logic Audio Platinum 5.5.1, but being able to use zTracker or a similar thing with macOS would be amazing. especially for controlling obscure midi boxes.

[coderofsalvation]

Btw. I'm not trying to downplay ztracker, it's just that I realized that your work on ztracker_mac has exposed some very important matters:

• impulse tracker (IT) dev stopped (while the PC-midi paradigm was about to happen)
• ztracker (ZT) was an attempt to compensate for that
• both IT&ZT did not have the luxure of SDL in those times (to deliver crossplatform apps).
• dsp plugins were on the rise (regardless of their portability/broken-song aspects)
• schismtracker seems to have collected few mac developers (as a mac-less maintainer of milkytracker, I know this is rare)
• plugin-based Daws are revealing an plugin-overcomplexity song-portability problem

Roughly speaking, there seem to be 3 categories of tracker users:

1. ones which stick to renoise (with lua scripting)
2. ones which USE the simple IT/ZT approach (conservative)
3. ones which sometimes use the simple IT/ZT approach and long for extendability (progressive)

I'm more on the progressive side, especially since I see some unique (perhaps historically important) directions for (crosstracker) lua scriptability.

Let me ramble a bit more and look at the 'soul' of ztracker:

1. 1:1 copy of Impulse Tracker interface
2. 64 track sequencer with variable 32-256 rows/pattern, 256 total patterns
3. easy use of multiple machines across multiple MIDI devices/interfaces
4. rock solid timing that tested as good as cubase (3/496ppqn error)
5. load/save compressed .zt files
6. volume/effect curve drawing in pattern editor
7. IT importing (thanks to lipid)
8. auto sync via midi-clock
9. .mid export
10. intelligent midi-in w/ slave to external sync
11. planned: realtime pattern player (a-la-rebirth)

Perhaps if shism could implement 3, 4, 8 and 9 (via luascript) could be the 'soul' of ztracker inside schismtracker?
Would you agree, and what kind of prioritization would you apply to those features?

[esaruoho]

@coderofsalvation one of the coolest things about zTracker was definitely the 256 row pattern - and the .mid export. i somehow neglected to ever figure out the volume effect curve drawing, or never used it, sounds great though. autosync via midiclock is also massive, as being able to start a tracker that you can edit while it's playing, is amazing. same with external sync.

and the way of having a template in ztracker with your midi gear (also using the multiple midiports via different adapters etc) is pretty hot. so 2, 3, 4, 8, 9, 10 are the ones that "kinda matter". for me personally 9 and 3 + 4 are the highlights of the whole thing. but of course if there was a way of playing audio-channels (i.e. send midinote C1 to play channel01, C#1 to play channel02, and could retrigger them, would be pretty amazing.

i think zTracker would benefit also from some minor copywriting of dialogs etc but since i don't know how to build it even on windows, i can't go in and do it. i'm more of a github pullrequest type guy, i.e. if i could do that and build an exe easily, that'd be great. maybe github actions allow for it?

i think any progress with what zTracker introduced, and somehow allowing it to exist within Schism, would be great.

[coderofsalvation]

good points.
TBH It's been a while since I've been looking into schism, but I noticed quite an extensive midi settings menu today.
Did ztracker have its own effects compared to Impulse Tracker?
I should look into the differences.
Besides that..I still think if schism would support lua plugins which can do .mid/.zt import/export..then perhaps a ztracker mode could be triggered somehow.