UPS disharge batteries to 0V and goes in power loop when back to AC is on and battery voltage < 3V #82
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Siegurd01
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Siegurd01
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Siegurd01
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This is exactly what I experienced as well, rendering this UPS unusable for me. Everytime I leave it off for a couple of days, it cannot turn on again as it enters the loop the OP mentioned. Not enough power to boot the RPI and thee RPI discharges the batteries. |
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And still no answers from developer. I wrote on Youtube, emal, Aliexpress store... |
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I still have this issue and would really appreciate to have some sort of feedback that would help stop this from happening. This is almost the perfect product for my use case and would love to use it more but this is really unfortunate. |
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I've wanted to use this as an "attached battery" for some projects. Pull it off the shelf, stick in an SD card, run it portable, then plug in to recharge. Only the batteries run down to 0V in a week or two when not on AC power. So while I've not had the (more pressing and troubling) problem of continued reboots, the question still remains of what's drawing down the batteries when unplugged and powered off. |
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Short answer: a ups is intended for keeping a computer running even though
there's loss of external power. In case the interruption takes too long and
the battery voltage drops too much, a control program is supposed to detect
that, halt the computer and switch off power. Then usually restart the
computer when external power returns.
It's not a battery power supply.
The UPS plus by Geeekpi is not too well documented IMO and may require a
lot of work to get it to reliably do what you think it should do.
Documentation is in English, but likely written by a Chinese speaker.
If the UPS doesn't reliably do what you think it should, you loose control
of the computer and you'll have to get physical access to it which may be
burdensome, or if indeed it manages to allow the batteries to go totally
dead, you may have a fire hazard.
Also the way it operates has changed a lot going from f/w version 3 to
version 10. So old comments may be misleading.
Arjen Raateland
(On The Road)
Op vr 17 jun. 2022 23:56 schreef galtobellojr ***@***.***>:
… I've wanted to use this as an "attached battery" for some projects. Pull
it off the shelf, stick in an SD card, run it portable, then plug in to
recharge.
Only the batteries run down to 0V in a week or two when not on AC power.
So while I've not had the (more pressing and troubling) problem of
continued reboots, the question still remains of what's drawing down the
batteries when unplugged and powered off.
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Look into the role of register 0x19, restart upon return of AC, and 0x1A.
If your control script, when the battery voltage drops too low, initiates a
shutdown of the OS, but then sets 0x19 to 0 instead of 1 as usual, and 0x1A
to 60, the ups will make the pi shut down first, then after 60 seconds cut
the power to the pi, and then I will just sit and wait for the operator
(lights off).
This assumes you operate the ups without AC power present except for
charging when the pi is not in use.
If you choose 3200 mV for the protection voltage and the control script
applies a margin of 200 mV, the pi will shut down when voltage is 3400 mV.
There should still be left power left to keep the ups's MCU and other
circuits powered for some time.
Then recharge the batteries in the UPS and start the pi again by pushing
the button.
You'll need to launch the control script as a Cron job @reboot.
Does this sound like a plan?
I think you cannot expect a ups to work without a controlling program.
Arjen
(On The Road)
Op za 18 jun. 2022 03:37 schreef A. A. J. Raateland <
***@***.***>:
… Short answer: a ups is intended for keeping a computer running even though
there's loss of external power. In case the interruption takes too long and
the battery voltage drops too much, a control program is supposed to detect
that, halt the computer and switch off power. Then usually restart the
computer when external power returns.
It's not a battery power supply.
The UPS plus by Geeekpi is not too well documented IMO and may require a
lot of work to get it to reliably do what you think it should do.
Documentation is in English, but likely written by a Chinese speaker.
If the UPS doesn't reliably do what you think it should, you loose control
of the computer and you'll have to get physical access to it which may be
burdensome, or if indeed it manages to allow the batteries to go totally
dead, you may have a fire hazard.
Also the way it operates has changed a lot going from f/w version 3 to
version 10. So old comments may be misleading.
Arjen Raateland
(On The Road)
Op vr 17 jun. 2022 23:56 schreef galtobellojr ***@***.***>:
> I've wanted to use this as an "attached battery" for some projects. Pull
> it off the shelf, stick in an SD card, run it portable, then plug in to
> recharge.
>
> Only the batteries run down to 0V in a week or two when not on AC power.
> So while I've not had the (more pressing and troubling) problem of
> continued reboots, the question still remains of what's drawing down the
> batteries when unplugged and powered off.
>
> —
> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
> <#82 (comment)>,
> or unsubscribe
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P.S. instead of 0x1A read 0x18!
You would need to use the counter without restart ...
Arjen
(On The Road)
Op za 18 jun. 2022 14:41 schreef A. A. J. Raateland <
***@***.***>:
… Look into the role of register 0x19, restart upon return of AC, and 0x1A.
If your control script, when the battery voltage drops too low, initiates
a shutdown of the OS, but then sets 0x19 to 0 instead of 1 as usual, and
0x1A to 60, the ups will make the pi shut down first, then after 60 seconds
cut the power to the pi, and then I will just sit and wait for the operator
(lights off).
This assumes you operate the ups without AC power present except for
charging when the pi is not in use.
If you choose 3200 mV for the protection voltage and the control script
applies a margin of 200 mV, the pi will shut down when voltage is 3400 mV.
There should still be left power left to keep the ups's MCU and other
circuits powered for some time.
Then recharge the batteries in the UPS and start the pi again by pushing
the button.
You'll need to launch the control script as a Cron job @reboot.
Does this sound like a plan?
I think you cannot expect a ups to work without a controlling program.
Arjen
(On The Road)
Op za 18 jun. 2022 03:37 schreef A. A. J. Raateland <
***@***.***>:
> Short answer: a ups is intended for keeping a computer running even
> though there's loss of external power. In case the interruption takes too
> long and the battery voltage drops too much, a control program is supposed
> to detect that, halt the computer and switch off power. Then usually
> restart the computer when external power returns.
> It's not a battery power supply.
>
> The UPS plus by Geeekpi is not too well documented IMO and may require a
> lot of work to get it to reliably do what you think it should do.
> Documentation is in English, but likely written by a Chinese speaker.
>
> If the UPS doesn't reliably do what you think it should, you loose
> control of the computer and you'll have to get physical access to it which
> may be burdensome, or if indeed it manages to allow the batteries to go
> totally dead, you may have a fire hazard.
>
> Also the way it operates has changed a lot going from f/w version 3 to
> version 10. So old comments may be misleading.
>
> Arjen Raateland
> (On The Road)
>
> Op vr 17 jun. 2022 23:56 schreef galtobellojr ***@***.***>:
>
>> I've wanted to use this as an "attached battery" for some projects. Pull
>> it off the shelf, stick in an SD card, run it portable, then plug in to
>> recharge.
>>
>> Only the batteries run down to 0V in a week or two when not on AC power.
>> So while I've not had the (more pressing and troubling) problem of
>> continued reboots, the question still remains of what's drawing down the
>> batteries when unplugged and powered off.
>>
>> —
>> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
>> <#82 (comment)>,
>> or unsubscribe
>> <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ANCBKNTNDFRXMVZXEP5V7CDVPTQ7LANCNFSM5GGJQSZQ>
>> .
>> You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message
>> ID: ***@***.***>
>>
>
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I have found that the USB output ports of the UPS itself are still powered even if the UPS has been turned off by pressing the button and the Pi has shutdown as well. I checked this by plugging in a USB current tester to the USB output port of the UPS and found it powered on the tester, drawing 5.12V and pulling a few hundred mA. If you have anything plugged in there, that is probably what is draining the batteries to 0V even after shutting off the Pi at the protection voltage. |
The comment about the FW version is interesting. I did not update it from what I got it from originally so I do not know what it is on. Are there any patch notes to describe some of the changes? The main thing I am trying to prevent is the UPS still providing voltage and current at its USB outputs when powered down. This is causing the batteries to drain to super low voltages. I do have the control script enabled setting the protection voltage to automatically shut down at 3300 mV with a 200 mV buffer - and it does shut down correctly. When I test the voltage of the batteries some hours past when it automatically shut down, they are down to 1.2V or lower. I have a device that is plugged into the USB out that draws a few hundred mA so I want the USB ports to stop providing current while shut down. When I try to plug the AC back in - the Pi and UPS go into a boot loop as there is not enough voltage to power on properly and it never charges (and has corrupted at least 1 SD card). If I could delay the back to AC from trying to power up the Pi until the UPS is sufficiently charged, that would be a solution as well if preventing the USB ports from providing power is not possible. Any advise on these 2 solutions would be great. Thank you for your time. |
|
If you're into electronics, you could build a switch contraption in a usb
cable you cut in two and connect the ends to a small PCB. Interrupt only
the +5 V line in the PCB. Using a power FET with a low resistance in the ON
state and a suitably low gate threshold voltage in the +5V line you could
disconnect power to the usb peripheral when the pi is off.
You probably need some level shifting between +5 V or +3,3 V on the pi and
the gate of the power FET. A single BJT may fit that position.
I don't think it's all that difficult to find suitable components. Build it
one step at a time and test as you go.
I didn't find any commercial product to do this, which doesn't mean such a
product doesn't exist.
When the UPS cuts power to the pi, the voltage on the +5 V and +3,3 V pin
of the pi goes to zero and that should provide suitable timing for
switching the usb peripheral off as well.
Arjen
(On The Road)
Op wo 22 jun. 2022 00:42 schreef ngiaimocentrak ***@***.***>:
… Short answer: a ups is intended for keeping a computer running even though
there's loss of external power. In case the interruption takes too long and
the battery voltage drops too much, a control program is supposed to detect
that, halt the computer and switch off power. Then usually restart the
computer when external power returns. It's not a battery power supply. The
UPS plus by Geeekpi is not too well documented IMO and may require a lot of
work to get it to reliably do what you think it should do. Documentation is
in English, but likely written by a Chinese speaker. If the UPS doesn't
reliably do what you think it should, you loose control of the computer and
you'll have to get physical access to it which may be burdensome, or if
indeed it manages to allow the batteries to go totally dead, you may have a
fire hazard. Also the way it operates has changed a lot going from f/w
version 3 to version 10. So old comments may be misleading. Arjen Raateland
(On The Road) Op vr 17 jun. 2022 23:56 schreef galtobellojr *@*.
*>: … <#m_-5209456298656092683_> I've wanted to use this as an "attached
battery" for some projects. Pull it off the shelf, stick in an SD card, run
it portable, then plug in to recharge. Only the batteries run down to 0V in
a week or two when not on AC power. So while I've not had the (more
pressing and troubling) problem of continued reboots, the question still
remains of what's drawing down the batteries when unplugged and powered
off. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#82 (comment)
<#82 (comment)>>, or
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The comment about the FW version is interesting. I did not update it from
what I got it from originally so I do not know what it is on. Are there any
patch notes to describe some of the changes?
The main thing I am trying to prevent is the UPS still providing voltage
and current at its USB outputs when powered down. This is causing the
batteries to drain to super low voltages. I do have the control script
enabled setting the protection voltage to automatically shut down at 3300
mV with a 200 mV buffer - and it does shut down correctly. When I test the
voltage of the batteries some hours past when it automatically shut down,
they are down to 1.2V or lower. I have a device that is plugged into the
USB out that draws a few hundred mA so I want the USB ports to stop
providing current while shut down.
When I try to plug the AC back in - the Pi and UPS go into a boot loop as
there is not enough voltage to power on properly and it never charges (and
has corrupted at least 1 SD card). If I could delay the back to AC from
trying to power up the Pi until the UPS is sufficiently charged, that would
be a solution as well if preventing the USB ports from providing power is
not possible.
Any advise on these 2 solutions would be great. Thank you for your time.
—
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<#82 (comment)>,
or unsubscribe
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PS. if my suggestion works, and you're adventurous, you could build the
circuit to interrupt the +5 V to the usb connectors on the UPS board
itself. You might even be able to use a single circuit for both usb ports.
You'd have to solder reliably to PCB traces on the UPS board, though, and
find out where exactly the +5 V is routed to the usb ports on the UPS and
cut the trace or traces.
52pi could/should have included such a power switch on the UPS. Perhaps
with a jumper to choose whether to cut power to the peripherals or leave it
connected when the pi is powered down. Or controlled by the f/w.
Arjen
(On The Road)
Op wo 22 jun. 2022 11:23 schreef A. A. J. Raateland <
***@***.***>:
… If you're into electronics, you could build a switch contraption in a usb
cable you cut in two and connect the ends to a small PCB. Interrupt only
the +5 V line in the PCB. Using a power FET with a low resistance in the ON
state and a suitably low gate threshold voltage in the +5V line you could
disconnect power to the usb peripheral when the pi is off.
You probably need some level shifting between +5 V or +3,3 V on the pi and
the gate of the power FET. A single BJT may fit that position.
I don't think it's all that difficult to find suitable components. Build
it one step at a time and test as you go.
I didn't find any commercial product to do this, which doesn't mean such a
product doesn't exist.
When the UPS cuts power to the pi, the voltage on the +5 V and +3,3 V pin
of the pi goes to zero and that should provide suitable timing for
switching the usb peripheral off as well.
Arjen
(On The Road)
Op wo 22 jun. 2022 00:42 schreef ngiaimocentrak ***@***.***
>:
> Short answer: a ups is intended for keeping a computer running even
> though there's loss of external power. In case the interruption takes too
> long and the battery voltage drops too much, a control program is supposed
> to detect that, halt the computer and switch off power. Then usually
> restart the computer when external power returns. It's not a battery power
> supply. The UPS plus by Geeekpi is not too well documented IMO and may
> require a lot of work to get it to reliably do what you think it should do.
> Documentation is in English, but likely written by a Chinese speaker. If
> the UPS doesn't reliably do what you think it should, you loose control of
> the computer and you'll have to get physical access to it which may be
> burdensome, or if indeed it manages to allow the batteries to go totally
> dead, you may have a fire hazard. Also the way it operates has changed a
> lot going from f/w version 3 to version 10. So old comments may be
> misleading. Arjen Raateland (On The Road) Op vr 17 jun. 2022 23:56 schreef
> galtobellojr *@*.
>
> *>: … <#m_-4906248457797540155_m_-5209456298656092683_> I've wanted to
> use this as an "attached battery" for some projects. Pull it off the shelf,
> stick in an SD card, run it portable, then plug in to recharge. Only the
> batteries run down to 0V in a week or two when not on AC power. So while
> I've not had the (more pressing and troubling) problem of continued
> reboots, the question still remains of what's drawing down the batteries
> when unplugged and powered off. — Reply to this email directly, view it on
> GitHub <#82 (comment)
> <#82 (comment)>>, or
> unsubscribe
> https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ANCBKNTNDFRXMVZXEP5V7CDVPTQ7LANCNFSM5GGJQSZQ
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> . You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.Message
> ID: @.*>
>
> The comment about the FW version is interesting. I did not update it from
> what I got it from originally so I do not know what it is on. Are there any
> patch notes to describe some of the changes?
>
> The main thing I am trying to prevent is the UPS still providing voltage
> and current at its USB outputs when powered down. This is causing the
> batteries to drain to super low voltages. I do have the control script
> enabled setting the protection voltage to automatically shut down at 3300
> mV with a 200 mV buffer - and it does shut down correctly. When I test the
> voltage of the batteries some hours past when it automatically shut down,
> they are down to 1.2V or lower. I have a device that is plugged into the
> USB out that draws a few hundred mA so I want the USB ports to stop
> providing current while shut down.
>
> When I try to plug the AC back in - the Pi and UPS go into a boot loop as
> there is not enough voltage to power on properly and it never charges (and
> has corrupted at least 1 SD card). If I could delay the back to AC from
> trying to power up the Pi until the UPS is sufficiently charged, that would
> be a solution as well if preventing the USB ports from providing power is
> not possible.
>
> Any advise on these 2 solutions would be great. Thank you for your time.
>
> —
> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
> <#82 (comment)>,
> or unsubscribe
> <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ANCBKNRKVOJKPSSUBROSQN3VQIZK7ANCNFSM5GGJQSZQ>
> .
> You are receiving this because you commented.Message ID:
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While that may be a bit beyond me at this time, I do have a lot of hardware engineering resources so I may be able to get something like that done. Shame it isn't on the board itself or a firmware related thing. Thank you. |
|
What you would need is a P-channel MOSFET, a small signal NPN transistor
and two resistors. Minimum. Choose the MOSFET for low on resistance and low
gate threshold, 3 V.
Arjen
(On The Road)
Op wo 22 jun. 2022 17:08 schreef ngiaimocentrak ***@***.***>:
… While that may be a bit beyond me at this time, I do have a lot of
hardware engineering resources so I may be able to get something like that
done. Shame it isn't on the board itself or a firmware related thing. Thank
you.
—
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub
<#82 (comment)>,
or unsubscribe
<https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ANCBKNQSKFUVXMS3W5MG2SDVQMM7BANCNFSM5GGJQSZQ>
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Apologies for not responding sooner, but: The scenario I described is experienced when the UPS is shut down and disconnected from power.
I have some small experience with UPSes over several decades, some with but most without interface to the powered devices (such as the power-strip-style for home use, as well as those in large raised-floor environments with diesel backup). None, in my experience, discharged themselves when powered down and no A/C. I mention this now after reading comments regarding 5V still available at the USB when shutdown, because:
This whole problem saddens me, as the UPS device would fit my use cases if it didn't require battery removal when shutdown. |
Yeap - I actually was able to get a board that does that created. I plug it into both USB ports, then I plug my peripherals in to the new board. It passes through the current when at 5V (device powered on) and blocks it when the device is powered off (4.2V or less) using a comparator. I can confirm that the voltage supplied to the USBs when powered off is equivalent to the voltage the batteries are currently at. You are right though - it delays the inevitable. For me, this should be okay as my system should be running most of the time and I just need the batteries + drain time to be long enough to get power back on. This should almost always be the case, but it could unfortunately still get too low and cause the boot loop issue. For storage, I am going to be using battery pull tabs. It is a shame - this device is perfect for my use case in almost every way if not for this issue. I don't know why the battery power is connected directly to the USB ports even when the board is powered off, real annoying. |
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@ngiaimo Are you using firmware v10? I've not tried it, but if what I've read is correct and it's increased the reboot time from 30sec to 10min, that may address your unending boot loop. I'm thinking that the unexplained (from what I've read) increase to 10min should give the batteries more charge before a boot-and-undervolt-shutdown. If not on the first loop, consecutive undervolt-shutdown-charge-10min-reboot cycles should get you up solid. This is mere speculation from my reading; I'm not in a position to test just now, so YMMV. But if you're not on v10 it might be worth trying. My attempt through Amazon asking about the battery drain was met with a "check your charger" reply, and so I have up on that avenue of inquiry .. |
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@galtobellojr oh wow - that might do it. I am using whatever firmware came with them at this time so I will look into updating the firmware if it isn't on v10. If that can prevent the boot loops, that would make me feel so much better. Thanks, I will pop back and let you know the result! |
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As I said, I've not tried it, but the complaints about 30s vs 10m had me thinking. Looking forward to your experiences... |
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The complete drainage of the batteries is indeed a show stopper. would be great if that could be fixed. |
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May I know if there is any further development for this issue? Currently using UPLSPLUS EP 0136 firmware 10 Situation Battery depleted below 3.00Vdc,
Is there progress of solution rather than removing load to charge it first? Or is that how an UPS should work? Or is the UPS EP0136 can be programmed, so that it will focused on charging battery until Protection Level achieved only will turn on the load from Ups? Thank you Zanes |
|
Hey @zanes83 - I have been searching for that answer for ages and I reached out to their support email and could not convey the information to the one responding in a way that they actually provided useful information...they just did not seem to grasp what I was asking. I do not have a good work around for this still - the only solution I have used is to have an external board plugged into the USB ports that prevent any current from flowing if less than 5V are coming out of the ports - indicating that it is no longer on. This helps prevent getting to the state where the battery gets too low to boot, but if it gets that far after time still (the external board draws a tiny amount of current but can add up over time), then we can still run into this issue with the boot loop. I would love an easy solution as you said - do not power anything (USB ports or Pi) if the voltage is too low still. Desperately hoping for an answer. |
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Hi @ngiaimo Through the supplier, managed to get in touch with someone who can respond on the issues raised. Was informed that currently they are doing the operation of reproducing the issue. Currently in the test hoping to reproduce the problem encountered, and provide a solution at firmware level using OTA update to eliminate the BUG. Had a total of 3 Pi damaged due to this issue, hopefully they will be able to get it done soon. fingers crossed Besides, did raised another issue to them that the Shutdown Countdown will only count if removed power source and the timer will pause/halt when power had been reconnected. I will update here if there is any good news received. Cheers! |
|
Wow, that is great! It would be amazing if fixed. Also, I literally just ran into the issue with being plugged in to AC and it not turning off as expected. That is also awesome if it is fixed as well. Appreciate you also putting in the effort. Please update if you hear anything! |
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Dumb me. Left on a trip, thought, you never know, maybe storms whatever so I think I'll leave the power input to the UPS disconnected to protect ot while I am gone. Came back, you guessed it, won't boot! Came here to discover the issue and remedy as I don't have a charger for the batteries other than the UPS! Won't do that again! Since it's part of a case they make, a lot of effort to disconnect. |
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Good day pal I had just received an email that there is a firmware update to resolve the issue. Gonna test it first. You may give it a shot and hope it works! |
Yooo! Good stuff! Please update with your results and I will look to run my own tests tomorrow. Thanks! |
Another owner hoping for good news. Just unpacked the very-dead pi/ups combo and am looking to try the new firmware as well. First, though, I have to reacquaint myself with everything (old memories die young...) The two issues I consider mandatory to be fixed:
While I understand it's likely impossible to eliminate all current draw while in standby, what I've seen here leaves a too-short standby time before batteries are scarily depleted, and then manual intervention before power restoration. To reiterate: While I agree that a UPS ideally communicates state with its load, that is not what I consider essential for a UPS. My bare essentials require the load to be: Protected from over- or under-voltages; Remain powered for some period after mains failure; Reasonably shut down after that period (notifying the load if possible, just a "plug pull" if not); and Restore load power safely once mains restored (and batteries reasonably charged). This is what I've experienced with inexpensive "power strip" types of UPSes over the years, as well as the data center installations. I'm backing a Kickstarter "battery charger/power supply" that's undergoing production testing now; attaches via pogo pins, and claims "<100uA current draw when not in use" which should indeed last over a year on standby. I'll see how that performs. |
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Finally got around to putting the UPS Plus onto the bench and spending some time with it. Initially was encouraged to find the off-state power draw of a Raspberry Pi 4 was around 120uA. The thrill didn't last long, though. I metered the current draw from two 3000mAh 18650 cells, and when all is shutdown the current draw is around 17.5mA. If my math is correct, 17.5mA should drain 6000mAh cells in about two weeks? Which matches my experience. Been awhile since I've done much bench work, but the numbers reflect my experience. After a day or so of mains outage, batteries will have drain to the point of shutdown, but then, in that drained state, will continue to have about 500mAh more drawn daily. Hopefully the new firmware will allow rebooting such a drained setup, since one is guaranteed to have batteries well below the cutoff voltage when power returns after some hours/days. Either preventing repowering the load until a minimum battery voltage is reached, or programmatically distinguishing between "low battery" on the way down (shutdown) and the way up (hang on!). I am disappointed. |
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So, is there a firmware update and if so, what is the version? |
Hi!, I found 2 big problems in the UPS:
To solve second problem you can add check for battery voltage before UPS start. It may be user programed function. For example if battery voltage if below 3V UPS does not start and it will wait until battery charges to 3V and only then start up if Back to AC register is HIGH.
First problem can be solved by using monitor (BD4730) in battery line. It will "cut off" battery when battery voltage if below 3V with only 46 µA consumption on itself.
from https://zelenyugol.ru/en/obogrevateli/zashchita-akb-avtomobilya-ot-glubokogo-razryada-ustroistva-zashchity/
UPD: I update UPS firmware in October 2021
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