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"transcript": "<p>[sonic ID]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: And I assume we’re live on the air now.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: We don’t do live.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Have you guys ever talked to each other?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: I don’t think so no.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Oh so this so this is Jad Abumrad.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: Well hi.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: This is Jim Gleick.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Hi how are you?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: Fine how are you?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:00:30.72#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Pretty good pretty good.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC CHANGES</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Rainbows rainbows. Okay so we’re gonna start today with author</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: [clears throat]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: James Gleick.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: As I recall, you wanted to talk about Isaac Newton.</p>\r\n<p>RK: That’s right.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: We did call him to talk about Isaac Newton but more specifically, colors.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: All right Isaac Newton - he’s 23 years old.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: 1665.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: And he’s - he’s home for the holidays - no, there’s no holiday. He’s home for the plague.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: There was actually a plague. They sent everybody home from school. In any case, he’s in his room - famously</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:01:00.86#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>solving all these mysteries of the world. And one of the questions that he thinks about during this break is -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: What are colors?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: Where do they come from?</p>\r\n<p>RK: Like when I see the color red, is that red - is it inside my head or is it something that exists sort of out there in the world?</p>\r\n<p>JG: Yes the light without or it’s the light within.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Hm.</p>\r\n<p>JG: So he pokes a knife into his eye.</p>\r\n<p>JA: He what??</p>\r\n<p>RK: He -</p>\r\n<p>JA: What do you mean?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: Here’s what Newton wrote in</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: his notebook:</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: I took a bodekin -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:01:30.47#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>put it betwixt my eye and the bone as near to the backside of my eye as I could.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Ugh.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: And pressing my eye with the end of it, there appeared several white and colored circles.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Huh.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Did that lead to him some conclusion about where the spots live?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Whether they’re outside or inside?</p>\r\n<p>JG: No. This didn’t get him very far.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Cause seeing spots when you poke your eye doesn’t tell you much about what color is.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: But um -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: But what he did next did.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:02:00.55#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>And this one he’s a little more famous for.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: He got himself a prism which is just a - a bit of glass shaped like a pyramid.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: Wasn’t so easy for him to get his hands on a prism, but he did.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Then he shut his blinds so the room was totally dark. But he poked a little hole</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: in one of the blinds and then he waited -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: And the sun had to be at just the right angle.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: And he waited. And when the sun got to just the right spot. A ray of light shot through the room, Newton immediately stuck his prism into</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:02:30.78#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>the light and the light - shattered and became - </p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: A rainbow on the wall.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Or in Newton’s own words.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: A colored image of the sun. Now that’s gorgeous isn’t it.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Mm.</p>\r\n<p>VF: A colored image of the sun.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: That’s Victoria Finley, she wrote a book about color and she says - the thing to understand about this experiment is at the time, people believed that white light -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: Was given by god or given given by - this amazing thing called</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:03:00.70#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>nature.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: The light from the sun was sort of holy.</p>\r\n<p>VF: Yeah!</p>\r\n<p>JG: If there was anything that was pure it was white.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: So when the prism did the rainbow thing which people knew prisms did - they just figured -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: The colors are in there, in the glass.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: In other words that rainbow had nothing to do with the light itself. That was just the prism.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: Adding some kind of impurities to the light.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Oh wow I hadn’t thought of the possibility that the prism is muddying the light. It’s polluting -</p>\r\n<p>JG: Yeah that’s -</p>\r\n<p>RK: the light.</p>\r\n<p>JG: Well how do you know that the prism isn’t generating these colors?</p>\r\n<p>RK: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p>JG: So he got a second</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:03:30.64#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>prism. And this was the trick.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: While the first prism was still making that rainbow</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>on the wall -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: He moved a few feet away and he held up a second prism in the blue area to see what would happen to the blue light.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Would the prism add more colors to the blue light?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: Or would it be transformed in some other way? And what he found was - nothing happened, it remains blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: So he thought hm - if the blue light isn’t getting muddied by the prism, then maybe the</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:04:00.43#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>prism wasn’t muddying the white light to begin with. Maybe that rainbow of colors was actually coming from inside the white light!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: He inferred that the first prism is dividing light into its constituent parts.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: Which means that that white light we see around us is actually constituted of all of these colors.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: The colors were in the light, they are the light! He had his answer. Light is a physical thing in the physical world. You can tweak it. Test it. Study it. This was the beginning of everything we know about light today.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: Which Newton put us on the road</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:04:30.95#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>toward finding.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: That ultraviolet rays, x-rays, radio waves, they’re all different energies of light and colors are just energies within that little sliver that we can see. And that has led to our understanding of the greenhouse effect. Knowing what stars are made of. Even the age of our own universe.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: But - not everybody was pleased</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>by this.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: Well a little bit later, John Keats, a romantic</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:05:00.96#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>poet, was really cross with him in a in a poem because they said he reduced - removed all the poetry of the rainbow.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: And the real challenge to Newton’s view of. Color - one that would really stick - oddly enough it did come from a poet - not Keats but a - the poet named [Gerta?].</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JL: Yeah he was this German romantic poet.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: That is author Jonah Lehrer.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: A regular with us who writes about this kind of thing, always wonderfully.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JL: One day he is walking in the park and he spots these yellow crocuses.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JL: And he looks at the yellow</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:05:30.31#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>crocuses and admires their petals, it’s - you know it’s early spring and they’re blooming. And then he quickly turns away.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: And in an instant - he suddenly sees- </p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JL: This dash of violet across his eyes.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: He still sees the shape of the flower but now it’s violet. It’s the opposite of yellow. He hadn’t rubbed his eye, he hadn’t</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: stuck a needle in it and yet there it was.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JL: - seemed just as real.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: As real as the yellow crocus.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JL: And yet he knew it wasn’t real, it came from inside his mind. And and it was - you know it’s something you know -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:06:00.22#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>we’ve all hallucinated colors, you can press on your eyeball or close your eyes and you see this riot of fireworks but - for [Gerta?] that simple observation leads him to think that maybe color isn’t simply about the external universe. That maybe our perception of colors began in the world. But maybe it was finished inside the mind.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: And today hundreds of years later this is still an open question.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JG: A scientist can say color has an objective reality. But - the colors we see- are tricks of the imagination.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:06:30.39#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>And there is no perfectly objective view of color. I - personally I like to - keep both of those opinions in mind at the same time.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Me too.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Me three. Well lucky for us-</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC CHANGES</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>We’re gonna do a whole show on this!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: You don’t say!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: I’m Jad Abumrad.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: I’m Robert Krulwich.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: This is Radiolab and today -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: It’s all about color.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Yes.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Where is color?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:07:00.36#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Is it in, is it out?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: That’s the question.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Yeah! We’re gonna explore that question through the eyes of the butterfly.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: In the killing fields of Cambodia.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: With a woman who may see colors the rest of us can only dream of.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: And we’ll go back to a time where the sea apparently looked like dark red wine.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Stick us in your ear holes cause we’re about to get colorful.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC CHANGES</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: And by the way - just before we get rolling, just wanna say - we did something kind of</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:07:30.62#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>different for us uh while making this hour. We put out this call to a bunch of musicians - solo artists, bands, to send us their favorite color songs. Their own interpretations of their favorite color song.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC CHANGES</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: We got an amazing response. So throughout this hour, you’re gonna hear color songs of various kinds uh - woven into some of the pieces between the pieces -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Those songs by the way we have plans for.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:08:00.18#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Big plans. You can go to our website radiolab.org to get a full list of the songs.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: And thank you by the way, everybody who sent us those songs.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT </p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Absolutely. Okay so uh should we go?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Yes. Let’s uh - so to to get things going um -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Hi. Here - here he is.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Not long after we talked to Jim Glick about Sir Isaac Newton - we talked to a neuroscientist by the name of Mark Changizi.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: I’m gonna chew grapes if that’s all right with you.</p>\r\n<p>MC: No -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Who had written a book about color.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Would you like some grapes?</p>\r\n<p>MC: Uh no thank you.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: And we threw the question at him.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: So one of the sort of</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:08:30.25#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>debates that became interesting to us is this - where is the color? Is it - out there? I mean is this grape that I’m holding right now? Is it red for everything? A bee a whale a - I mean or - is this - does it exist in a in a way that you can pin down and say it’s outside me or does it only get to be red when it gets in my head?</p>\r\n<p>JC: Uh well you can - another - a more severe way to to ask this and I ask this uh whenever I’m giving talks is just - would aliens see it as red or -</p>\r\n<p>JA: Yeah would would aliens see it as red?</p>\r\n<p>JC: Right and and the answer is uh - almost</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:09:00.99#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>surely no.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Truth is says Mark - even your dog wouldn’t see it as red.</p>\r\n<p>JC: Uh your dog as color vision has blue yellow and black white.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Really?</p>\r\n<p>JC: Yes.</p>\r\n<p>JA: So what would a world look like to a dog?</p>\r\n<p>JC: I mean if you’ve ever known a guy who’s color blind and 10 percent of men are color blind that’s roughly what it’s lke.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Huh.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Well here’s a question - if a dog and a human and a crow were to be staring at a rainbow would they be seeing very different things?</p>\r\n<p>JC: Yes.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>[ambi in]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:09:30.20#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Now this question that Robert just kind of tossed out during an interview like about how different creatures would see the rainbow. This ended up taking us down a little wormhole. And we ended up actually getting a choir to help us illustrate uh what we learned. But just to set a baseline your normal rainbow goes like this. Starting bottom up.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: 3-2-1.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>CHOIR IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Red…Orange…Yellow…Green…Blue…Violetttt.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Red, Orange Yellow Green Blue Violet - ROYGBIV. ROYGBIV.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:10:00.70#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Yeah that -I don’t know why people put the I in there but that’s it.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: If you didn’t have the indigo you couldn’t say it though it’d be ROYGBVVV -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: That’s why you need the “I” I think just to say the ROYGBIV yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: That by the way is Tom Cronin.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Hi Tom.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: Uh I’m what’s called a visual ecologist.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Mark suggested we give him a call. He told us that humans see 7 colors in the rainbow.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MC: In the in the case of the dog -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Very different rainbow.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MC: Uh it’s gonna start off -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>CHOIR IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Blue…</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MC: Blue - he’ll be able to see blue just fine.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: So it would see a rainbow starting with blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Same blue we see.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: And then grading off into green.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Green.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:10:30.21#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Same green as us.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: And then disappearing.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>CHOIR OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: The rainbow would end there.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: With a tiny bit of yellow throw in.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: That’s it?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: Yeah so the rainbow would be - only be about half as thick as ours.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Wow.</p>\r\n<p>MC: Um so -</p>\r\n<p>JA: That’s a sucky rainbow, do.g</p>\r\n<p>MC: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p>RK: That’s why when god promised that he would never deliver another deluge and he gave - he made the promise in a rainbow - that dogs just were totally unimpressed.</p>\r\n<p>JA: [laughs] And what is it about the dog eye that makes it see this way?</p>\r\n<p>TC: It doesn’t have red sensitive</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:11:00.58#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>photoreceptors, no red sensitive cones.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: The weird thing is that the difference between dogs and us cone wise is just one. They have cones tuned to blue and green - so do we. But we have this one extra. Red.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>CHOIR IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Red.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Which doesn’t really seem like a big difference, I mean it’s just one cone. But -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: To have 3 is so much better than 2.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: That’s Jay Neitz, vision scientist.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Hi Jay.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: Because of this kind of multiplicative thing. Red can get mixed with blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Blue</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Which makes purple.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Purple.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:11:30.51#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: Or red can get mixed with yellow.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Yellow.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: To make orange.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Orange.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: And green can mix with blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: To get teal or turquoise.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Turquoise.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: And that’s how we get about 100 different shades of color that we can see.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>CHOIR OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: So adding photopigment instead of adding just one more color you actually add about 98 colors or so.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: All right let’s move on so now we have a crow. Unless you’d like to change the bird.</p>\r\n<p>TC: Right. The crow is not so interesting, cause it’s pretty much like us.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Oh.</p>\r\n<p>TC: So let’s take a uh - let’s take uh - something like a um - a sparrow.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:12:00.50#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: All right.</p>\r\n<p>TC: Now sparrows have ultraviolet vision.</p>\r\n<p>RK: What do they see?</p>\r\n<p>TC: So they see - uh the rainbow starts before our rainbow starts where we just see sky, it would see an ultraviolet color.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>CHOIR IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Ultraviolet.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: And then it would see the violet.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Violet.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: And it would see the blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: And the uh greens.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Green.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: And the oranges.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Orange.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: And the yellow first and the orange and - </p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Yellow -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: And then the red and probably would see -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Red.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: Further into the red than us because they have -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Very very red.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: A more red sensitive red receptor than we have.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:12:30.49#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Extremely red.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: So they see a much broader rainbow. It would start earlier and it would end later.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>CHOIR OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Woo!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: So should we assume that the sparrow is the champion? That that’s the - that’s that’s as high as it gets?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: If you’re talking about vertebrates. If you’re talking about ver-</p>\r\n<p>RK: No I’m talking about anything that has a heart and a mind and a - and a body.</p>\r\n<p>TC: Once you leave the vertebrates then oh that’s rough. You’ve got - many animals have much better color vision than the vertebrates do.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Oh really?</p>\r\n<p>JA: Like what?</p>\r\n<p>TC: Butterflies are a great example,</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:13:00.28#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>butterflies have 5 or 6 kinds of re- of color receptors. We only have 3 remember.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Butterflies see more colors</p>\r\n<p>JA: [Oh?]</p>\r\n<p>RK: than we do?</p>\r\n<p>TC: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p>RK: so if a butterfly were looking at a rainbow. [laughs] I never thought we’d get</p>\r\n<p>TC: Well you know -</p>\r\n<p>RK: here!</p>\r\n<p>TC: Well they do, I’m sure I mean butterflies are out there when when uh - the rainbows are out - but - see colors we have no names for between the blues and the greens and the greens and the yellows.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Ohh.</p>\r\n<p>RK: So it would go from - ultraviolet it would see that -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>CHOIR IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Ultraviolet.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: Yup.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Then it would see violet.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Violet.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:13:30.60#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: And then blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Blue.</p>\r\n<p>JA: And then blue blue green?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Blue blue green.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: Yup.</p>\r\n<p>JA: And green green bluey bluey or whatever?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Green green bluey bluey.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: Right.</p>\r\n<p>RK: And then orange and red and all that?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: [unclear?]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: Yup.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: [fades down]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: They have very complicated eyes.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Huh.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Okay just to recap.</p>\r\n<p>RK: All right.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Here’s the dog.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>[Choir sings with fewer voices]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>A: Here’s us, humans.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>[Choir sings with more voices / harmonies]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Now the sparrow:</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>[Choir sings with more voices/ harmonies]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Little bit more bass, little bit more high end so to speak. And finally, the butterfly.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>[Choir sings with more voices/ harmonies]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:14:00.20#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Which is you know - not so far above the sparrow but it’s got more mids in there.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: So I’m now thinking butter plo- butterflies get the crown.</p>\r\n<p>TC: Yeah but - then you - if you go onto coral reefs you come across these animals called mantis shrimps.</p>\r\n<p>JA: What are they called? Meta? Like -</p>\r\n<p>TC: Mantis like a praying mantis.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Oh.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Oh mantis shrimp.</p>\r\n<p>TC: The shrimp catches prey using an arm like a praying mantis has.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Oh.</p>\r\n<p>TC: Uh - mantis shrimps are are mostly pretty small about the size of a finger. Some get to be as big as your forearm.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Uh huh.</p>\r\n<p>TC: They’re pretty big animals.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Oh.</p>\r\n<p>JA: I’m actually looking this up right here.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:14:30.46#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>[gasps] Oh my god they’re so colorful!</p>\r\n<p>TC: No they are colorful though.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Here look at this. Oh my god -</p>\r\n<p>TC: No they’re -</p>\r\n<p>JA: they’re just like a - it’s like they’re electric colored.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Yeah they’re like</p>\r\n<p>TC: Yeah -</p>\r\n<p>RK: turquoise or something.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Iridescent. And their eyes are like little cartoon eyes. They’re gigantic!</p>\r\n<p>TC: Yeah. They have 2 really big eyes right on the front.</p>\r\n<p>JA: And you said that dogs have 2 cones, we have 3 - how - how much does the butterfly have again?</p>\r\n<p>TC: Butterfly has 5.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p>TC: Depends on the butterfly. Uh mantis shrimps have 16.</p>\r\n<p>RK: [laughs]</p>\r\n<p>JA: 16?!!</p>\r\n<p>RK: [laughs]</p>\r\n<p>JA: Oh my god!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:15:00.02#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Well if you have 16 - uh -</p>\r\n<p>TC: 16 kinds of receptors.</p>\r\n<p>JA: What would the rainbow look like to them? I mean could they even see it?</p>\r\n<p>TC: Mantis shrimp would see a rainbow fine cause they live in very shallow water and so the water is pretty clear, almost like air.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Huh.</p>\r\n<p>TC: They would start the rainbow way way way inside where we see violet - they would see -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>CHOIR IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Super duper ultraviolet!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: Extraordinarily deep ultraviolet. And then they would go on through several kinds of ultraviolet that probably 5 or 6 kinds of ultraviolet - and then they would get to violet which which is - now they’re reaching our colors</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:15:30.48#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>and go through violet and violet blue and blue and blue green -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Blue green…</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Where they have those green green blue blue blues as well?</p>\r\n<p>TC: Yep.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Green green blue blue - yellow orange-</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TC: And then they would go out into the reds. So they would be about about as red as us when they get to the red end.</p>\r\n<p>RK: But only in the reds.</p>\r\n<p>TC: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>CHOIR OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>[cheering]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: What a rainbow that must be!</p>\r\n<p>RK: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p>TC: They have the most complicated visual system of any animals by a factor</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:16:00.04#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>of 2 of more, so -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Wait wait - he said any - do you mean - did you mean - unequivocally any?</p>\r\n<p>TC: Yeah! No other animal that we know of has a visual system within 50 percent as complicated.</p>\r\n<p>JA: All right mantis!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>CHOIR IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Mantis shrimp! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!</p>\r\n<p>TC: But you know on the other hand their brains are tiny, so who knows what</p>\r\n<p>RK: [laughs]</p>\r\n<p>TC: it turns into.</p>\r\n<p>JA: They not have the ability to perceive the beauty of the rainbow in the way that -</p>\r\n<p>TC: No I don’t I don’t -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:16:30.06#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>no they’re they’re - mantis shrimps are into violence, they’re not really into beauty. They go around and and kill things. That’s - I mean really, that’s what they do. That’s one reason they’re so fascinating is -</p>\r\n<p>JA: How how do they know -</p>\r\n<p>TC: They have to go around and kill things.</p>\r\n<p>RK: But what do they kill?</p>\r\n<p>TC: Uh crabs- other mantis shrimps, shrimps - octopuses.</p>\r\n<p>JA: They’ll kill octopuses?</p>\r\n<p>TC: Yeah small ones. A good size mantis shrimp will - can break the wall of an aquarium.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Really?</p>\r\n<p>TC: Yeah there’s uh there’s ones in California that can break aquarium walls if they hit it hard.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Oh my god.</p>\r\n<p>RK: So you have a pugnacious Muhammed Ali</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:17:00.33#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>seagoing animal with incredibly great visual sense!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: [unclear] Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Mantis shrimp! Mantis shrimp! The mantis shrimp!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Special thanks to Jim Briggs our engineer for the uh choir session which was a blast.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: To Mark Changizi for setting us off in this direction.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: To Michael Kershner and the Young New Yorkers Chorus.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:17:30.82#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: And John McClay and the [Greece?] Church Coral Society and those folks from the Collegiate Choral and the [XX?] choirs who joined us.</p>\r\n<p>JA: And to Alex Ambrose of WQXR for getting everybody together.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Thank you thank you thank you.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Hallelujahhhh.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>CHOIR OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>[cheering]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Okay a very quick update. Since we aired this broadcast - the mystery</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:18:00.21#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>of the mantis shrimp eye has just gotten deeper. And we mentioned they don’t seem to gaze at sunsets or rainbows. We now think that maybe they use colors as kind of triggers for particular actions. One color says fight, another color they - eat! Other color says sex. They still have the best eyes in the world but what they’re doing with those eyes is a bigger mystery now than ever.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>[beep]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: Start of message.</p>\r\n<p>TC: Hi this is Tom Cronin.</p>\r\n<p>JN: Hello this is Jay Neitz.</p>\r\n<p>Choir: Radiolab</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:18:30.93#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>is supported in part by the National Science Foundation -</p>\r\n<p>JN: And -</p>\r\n<p>TC: And the Alfred P Sloan Foundation.</p>\r\n<p>JN: Alfred P Sloan Foundation.</p>\r\n<p>TC: Enhancing public understanding of science -</p>\r\n<p>[beep]</p>\r\n<p>VF: Science and technology.</p>\r\n<p>Choir: in the modern world.</p>\r\n<p>VF: More information about Sloan.</p>\r\n<p>JN: At www.sloan -</p>\r\n<p>VF: s-l-o-a-n.</p>\r\n<p>JN: dot org.</p>\r\n<p>JG: This is James Gleick. Radiolab is produced by WNYC.</p>\r\n<p>Choir: And distributed by NPR. [someone sings high note]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:19:00.16#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: Okay hope that’s good enough for you.</p>\r\n<p>JN: Bye.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Simon Adler: Hey uh - Simon Adler here uh - I’m one of the producers here at Radiolab. And I wanted to take a quick second to tell you about something that uh - that I think’s pretty interesting that that we make here. Uh - besides the show. So we have a newsletter which I know everyone does but hear me out. Unlike a lot of other newsletters out there uh - we don’t waste your time by just blabbing about what our next release will be or begging you for money.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:19:30.65#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Uh actually we we do uh a little bit of that. But what what we also do is - each time a new episode drops we send you a list of staff picks. Essentially a collection of things the folks here who make the show have come across recently and are excited about uh - they range from books and music to TV shows, YouTube clips, art exhibits, blogs. It’s sort of a repository for the stuff that’s got us interested but for whatever reason we’re not sure how to turn into a</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:20:00.37#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>radio story. So if that sounds interesting to you at all I hope you’ll sign up for it. Our newsletter it’s free and you can sign up in about just 30 seconds at radiolab.org slash newsletter or - even easier just text RLNews as in Radiolab News - to 70101. That’s RLNews to 70101. And thanks.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Glenn Washington: There are doors that once opened can never be closed. From WNYC studios - and Snap Judgment’s underground lair - spook 2 is coming. Starting this August every week until Halloween. Be afraid but don’t turn out. The lights. Listen to Spook wherever you get your podcast.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:21:00.30#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Hey I’m Jad Abumrad.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: I’m Robert Krulwich.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: This is Radiolab and today we’re talking about color.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: Okay.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: And that actually brings us back to Jay Neitz.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: I’m a professor of ophthalmology - University of Washington, Seattle.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Jay has actually spent his entire career trying to get creatures to see colors that they normally can’t see.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: I - well yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: And he started - this is kind of an interesting story uh by taking some color blind monkeys who couldn’t see red-</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: They have blue cones, green cones, but no red cones.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Which is not unlike a lot of human males.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:21:30.57#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>In any case, he had these monkeys and was able to take the human gene for the red cone - wrap it in a virus-</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: And - we -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Inject it into the monkey’s eyes and bam!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: The monkeys suddenly had red cones.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Oh my god!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p>JN: So it had blue, green, and red.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Was this like Lasik, so it was just like a a 10 minute outpatient situation for the monkeys?</p>\r\n<p>JN: I would say close. Close to Lasik.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Could they then now see red?</p>\r\n<p>JN: Well every single morning before they get their breakfast they have to do their color vision test.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:22:00.74#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>So -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: So he’d sit each monkey at a computer -</p>\r\n<p>JN: We had a touch screen.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: And the screen looks totally grey. But - in that field of grey he adds a little red blob.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: Right.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Now here’s the key.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: We use grape juice as the reinforcement -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: For the monkeys -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: But -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: The game is -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: You have the touch the blob before you get your juice.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: So before the surgery they weren’t seeing any blobs and they weren’t getting any juice.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Because all they could see was grey so a little red blob could be right there</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:22:30.03#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>in front of em and they’d never see it. And the morning after their uh Lasiks’ color booster shot -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK?: Okay - [XX?] you see it -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: They -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>[beep]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Still couldn’t see it.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Day after day they would do their test -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: mmhm</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: And every day they would fail -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: Every day they would fail.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>[beep]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: No blob, no juice.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: But it’s -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: fun for them - they get out of their cage, and they talk to their friends and -</p>\r\n<p>RK: Did you fail? Yeah I failed? Did you fail?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:23:00.88#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: I failed. [laughs] Another day another fail.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Until 1 morning</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>after about 20 weeks. They woke up the monkeys gave them the test -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: and they began to not fail.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Really!</p>\r\n<p>RK: Really!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: If you watch the video of this it actually looks like the monkey is like -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: Wow! You know I’m not having any failures.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: And check out this dot! Look at this thing!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Check it out!</p>\r\n<p>JN: So I did get some sense, that they</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:23:30.86#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>felt like that their life had improved.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Now if this worked so well with the monkeys couldn’t you take a color blind human and and give them back the thing they’re missing?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: Absolutely. We could cure colorblindness in a human with exactly this technique.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Really.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: The only thing that we have to do is convince the FDA that the risks - uh - are low enough and the benefit is high enough that it’d be something we could do</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:24:00.80#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>in people.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Ha -</p>\r\n<p>RK: Have you tried it?</p>\r\n<p>JA: you’ve never tried it or?</p>\r\n<p>JN: No we’ve never tried it. Although I get a lot of emails that say I don’t care what the risks are. I’ve even had offers - how about if I come to your laboratory and you don’t tell anybody late at night and you give me the shot in the eye and we won’t tell anyone.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Which brings us back to our original question. If you can take a color blind human and give them normal color vision could you take a color see-er and boost em to make em a little more shrimpy?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:24:30.04#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: Well - yes,</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: He said sure, why not? But then there’s the whole FDA thing but - here’s the real surprise.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Jay says there are some people who are already a little bit mantis shrimp like. There are color mutants if I may call them that in the nicest possible way among us.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Or - they’re out there in theory. Okay so there’s the deal. The genes for the cones in our eyes that see color - you know the red green blue cones.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Yeah</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:25:00.72#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: They’re on the X chromosome. Now men as we know only have 1 of those.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Women have 2 X chromosomes.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Which means that women have 2 sets of these cone making genes. Normally one set is just a spare. It’s not used but still they’ve got 2 sets.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: And so someone said - aha -</p>\r\n<p><span><span><br /><br /></span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: it is theoretically possible that in some women this spare set of genes might mix up - turn on - morph into a whole new cone. A 4th cone!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: We’re gonna call it the yellow cone.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: So if -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:25:30.46#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>people with normal color vision are tri-chromats cause we’ve got 3 cones.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: A woman like that would be tetra-chromat. So all together she’d have a blue cone a green cone a yellow cone and a red cone.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: But she wouldn’t just see more yellow. This new yellow would mix</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>with the red and the blue and the green to create thousands maybe millions of - more shades of color.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: This amazing - technicolor is not the right word. It’s whatever would be the next kind of color that would be even more</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:26:00.29#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>super duper.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: This was just a though experiment?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: Yeah but um -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Jay actually figured out a way to test for this.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: We can look in people’s blood and I can say this woman has the gene for blue cones, green cones, yellow cones - red cones.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Oh so you can do a DNA test really.</p>\r\n<p>JN: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: So he started doing blood tests and he found this one woman -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: She worked at the same place we did.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Crazily enough.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: At the university.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: He looked at her DNA.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: And he saw the gene for the 4th cone.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:26:30.53#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Wow.</p>\r\n<p>JA: So did she see in</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: super technicolor or - how would you even know?</p>\r\n<p>JN: That was - that was a problem. And so we thought of an experiment in order to be able to see whether or not she had this extra dimension of color vision.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: He was able to produce these 2 yellow lights that to us you know - trichromats - normal trichromats - look totally identical.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: We’re color blind to that difference.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: But to a tetrachromat, a woman with this 4th cone. The would look totally different.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:27:00.60#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>So - I brought her in - I said okay - here it is. Do you see these as different? And she said — no.</p>\r\n<p>JA: No!</p>\r\n<p>JN: I don’t see them as -</p>\r\n<p>JA: No!</p>\r\n<p>JN: any different! But the story doesn’t end there.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Good!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Jay told us about a colleague of his in England.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: She’s at Newcastle.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Named Gabrielle Jordan and she apparently found 8 of these women with the extra cone. And out of those 8-</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: 7 of those women behaved exactly like the</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:27:30.77#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>person that I had tested.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Couldn’t see the difference.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: But one of them -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Took 1 look at those 2 yellows and said -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: No they look totally different to me.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Oh ho! One of these women was - saw the saw saw it as different so one of them had the cone but could use it and the others had the cone but couldn’t use it?</p>\r\n<p>JN: Yup so why is that?</p>\r\n<p>JA: Yeah why?</p>\r\n<p>JN: Well this is the part if you’d like I</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>could tell you what my theory is of what’s going on.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p>JN: So I think that -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Jay says let’s just imagine you grow up in a world</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:28:00.56#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>without color.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: Completely and totally a black and white world. Houses would be painted black and white. Printers would only print in black and white.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Even the TVs -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: They would just have black and white TV. Women’s makeup would be just you know - they’re dark or light.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: So it wouldn’t make any difference if you had color vision because you would never use that color vision, there’d be no words for color. Now just to make it interesting let’s imagine one day a bright red apple plops</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:28:30.76#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>into your world.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: How would you react to it?</p>\r\n<p>JA: Would you see it</p>\r\n<p>JN: So -</p>\r\n<p>JA: you think?</p>\r\n<p>JN: Well so that’s a very good question.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Maybe says Jay even though you have the ability to see that red apple - if you’ve never had a chance to use that ability? To practice? It may just lay dormant. And that he thinks might be what happens to women living with the extra cone in our world.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: They’re very rarely subjected to colors that would stimulate their extra kind of cone differently.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:29:00.96#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: So you’re saying those other colors just aren’t around enough for them?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: Yeah. Everything that we make is based on the fact that humans are trichromatic. The television only has 3 colors. Our color printers have 3 different colors. There’s nothing out there that we make artificially that a tetrachromat could see.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: But Jay says maybe -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: Some women because they’re just more aware or - because of the job that they do -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Maybe someone who works with color all the time like a florist or a painter.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: Little by little -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:29:30.23#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Because they’re paying such close attention.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JN: Their brain would learn to see that difference.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Huh.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: So naturally we wanted to find one of these mythic ladies -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: We’re hoping not mythic maybe we -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: The reason I say that is because we tried to find that one woman that he mentioned you know the one out of 8 -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: And we had a - a really hard time and we began to doubt that she</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:30:00.38#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>even existed. And then we began to look online and you see all these websites saying are you a tetrachromat, contact us contact us. Everyone is searching for these women and we we began to feel like we were chasing unicorns a little bit. But then our producer Tim Howard claimed - claimed that he had found one.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GPS: Recalculating.</p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah you are.</p>\r\n<p>GPS: Turn right on Sarah Street.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: He’d been in touch with Jay. Jay told him that he tested a woman, determined that she had the 4th cone and this woman was an interior designer.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Oh.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: But Jay had not yet determined whether she could use her 4th cone so we sent Tim to Pittsburgh where she lives.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>[door slams]</p>\r\n<p>Fem voice: Hi there.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: To see what he could find out.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Hey how are you?</p>\r\n<p>SH: Hi I’m Susan Hogan, I’m a mother of 3 and an interior designer.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: What was she like?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: She’s great.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Oh you have a juke box.</p>\r\n<p>SH: Uh huh. [laughs] Really - you want me to play something?</p>\r\n<p>TH: How bout number 307? It just seems appropriate cause it’s about color.</p>\r\n<p>SH: Whiter shade of pale. [laughs]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Um she told me</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:31:00.60#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>a lot about how she uses color in her work.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>SH: - you see the different colors of paint.</p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Because she thinks a lot about it in terms of painting walls.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>SH: I know the way</p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah</p>\r\n<p>SH: the sun is oriented in a room each wall will look a different color even though you paint -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: In any case here was my plan. I’d uh ordered this test before I went to Pittsburgh that Jay had suggested I get -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: All right open it open it open it -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: It involved these little pieces of brown fabric.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Okay.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: They all look identical.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Lynn: They look strikingly the same to me.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah, Lynn, Brenna, me, Soren -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:31:30.12#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Soren: Those are completely indistinguishable.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Couldn’t see a difference.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Lynn: Do they all look the same to you guys?</p>\r\n<p>Soren: Yes.</p>\r\n<p>Lynn: Okay.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: But I’m assuming they’re actually not all the same.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: That’s the trick. Jay said if you show them to a real tetrachromat they’re gonna be able to see these subtle differences that you know - you and I can’t see.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC CHANGES</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: And um -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Back to Pittsburgh.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: How bout we head over to that tree - is that - that look good?</p>\r\n<p>SH: I need to take my shoes off.</p>\r\n<p>TH: Oh yeah.</p>\r\n<p>SH: Cause it’ll be much more fun [laughs] -</p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah</p>\r\n<p>SH: for me.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: We ended up doing the test in a nearby park.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:32:00.56#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: We’re gonna do a bunch of these if you don’t mind.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: In the first trial -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: All right</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: I took out 3 of the swatches. 2 that were exactly the same and one that was supposedly different.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: And when you took it out could you see the difference?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: No, no.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Huh.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: So I go behind the tree and whisper into the mic.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Number 3 is different. Number 3. I hope you couldn’t hear me.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>SH: No I couldn’t.</p>\r\n<p>TH: I’ll let you take a look. She steps back from the swatches - gives it a look for a moment -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:32:30.45#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>and then she says -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>SH: Number 3.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Third one is different.</p>\r\n<p>SH: Looks more neutral, less red than 1 and 2 on the left.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: 1 for 1.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Luck.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: So I went behind the tree. I - changed up the swatches. So that now - the middle swatch was the odd one out.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: And same same deal ready set go -</p>\r\n<p>SH: Easy. [laughs]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Which number looks different?</p>\r\n<p>SH: The middle one.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Number 2.</p>\r\n<p>SH: mmhm</p>\r\n<p>TH: You’re right.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:33:00.50#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Really.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>SH: [laughs] Yeah.</p>\r\n<p>TH: Wow. Okay.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Then I figured I gotta make it harder. I switched it up and I made it so all 3 are different and I didn’t tell her.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: All 3 are different.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>SH: All 3 different.</p>\r\n<p>TH: Wow</p>\r\n<p>SH: Green red, less red.</p>\r\n<p>TH: Knocking this out of the park.</p>\r\n<p>SH: Why didn’t I do this well on my SATs Tim?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Wow you found her! I had - I was sure that - that she was not gonna be - there’s no way this test can work.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:33:30.78#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Well it actually might not have totally worked.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Wait what - did she start to fail?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: There - there’s one little thing I didn’t mention.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: What?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: I brought along a friend.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JL: I’m Jason [Lecroy?].</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Painter.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JL: Landscape, still life.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Thought I’d try him out as a control.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Oh cause you were thinking uh - let’s - get someone who likes color but is a boy and can’t be a tetrachromat.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Right.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Okay so.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: And uh - when we tried the exact same test with him -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: I mean these 3 they look the same, don’t they to you?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:34:00.57#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>No?</p>\r\n<p>JL: I see different.</p>\r\n<p>TH: He was amazing.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Uh oh.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JL: The first one on the left. 2 jumped out immediately.</p>\r\n<p>SH: mmhm mmhm</p>\r\n<p>JL: Number 1. They all 3 look different to me.</p>\r\n<p>TH: Wow.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Was he just as good as Susan?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah. I was a little bit disappointed I gotta say.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: And there was nowhere where he couldn’t do it and she could?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: No, but I mean I only had pieces of brown cloth! You know?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: So it doesn’t prove anything I guess. She still</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: No!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: might be a tetrachromat right?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: For all I know! And - there was this one</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:34:30.64#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>moment - I know it doesn’t prove anything but I asked her um - I asked her about the sky. And the sky was just that quintessential sky blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: mmhm</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: And she was - I was like what do you see? And she’s like -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>SH: I see um -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>do you see some of the pink in the blue? See I see a lot of pink like among the blue. There’s red in that blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: She was looking up at a blue sky and seeing red?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>SH: Do you see that?</p>\r\n<p>TH: No…</p>\r\n<p>SH: Oh I see so much red like up - and it’s -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:35:00.98#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Uh it’s kind of a cop out but it’s just kind of that perfect sky blue.</p>\r\n<p>SH: No? Okay that’s - that’s -</p>\r\n<p>TH: Where do you where do you see the reds?</p>\r\n<p>SH: It’s just mixed in there.</p>\r\n<p>TH: That’s cool.</p>\r\n<p>SH: One thing I don’t see is any green in that blue. I just see reds right - especially around like a white cloud [XX?] -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: And at that moment I felt like - my sky is boring.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: I’m so sorry for you. For us.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: I’m sorry for us.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>SH: [XX?] I mean how do we know that - any of this makes sense? [laughs] You know that’s</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:35:30.50#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>the fun of it I guess.</p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC CHANGES</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC CHANGES</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: You know</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:36:30.49#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>what we haven’t talked about yet.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: What’s that?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Um where do the colors come from?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: You mean like -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Like um -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Sky colors?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: no no like painterly colors like um like marine blue and and -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Oh like artificial colors.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Well no they’re not ar- that’s the thing. You’d think they’d come from a factory or something but originally they came from the earth.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: And and and there’s one story about color that has haunted me hm - for about a - a year and a half. It’s so strange.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: Mm.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: I don’t know know if</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:37:00.83#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>it’s true or not but I mean I I don’t know if even you know -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: It was in my book of course! [laughs]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: That’s Victoria Finley again. Her book is called Color. And this story starts with - well a particular kind of goop.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: It’s a color called gamboge. It’s um - it’s named after Cambodia the French word for Cambodia. And it comes from the sap of a tree that grows in the Cambodia Vietnam Thailand border area.</p>\r\n<p>JA: And this is a yellow color?</p>\r\n<p>VF: Well it’s a yellow color but -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: How you get it is</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:37:30.89#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>really the stick part.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: I mean the way they get it is that they cut a slash [wood cutting noise] in the bark - and then hitch up a tube made of bamboo.</p>\r\n<p>RK: About the circumference of a quarter?</p>\r\n<p>VF: Yes.</p>\r\n<p>RK: And then little droplets of goop come out?</p>\r\n<p>VF: Little tiny droplets of goo.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: And they fill up the tube. The same way you know you get maple syrup or rubber.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: But they leave it for a couple of years.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Years.</p>\r\n<p>VF: Years. All right so it’s a</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:38:00.30#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>really slowwww process.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: So slow -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: Drop.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: That some pretty strange things -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: Drop.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: can happen in that time.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: What do you mean?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Sap has secrets.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Secrets. What secrets.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Well you know - wait a minute. So - after 2 long years. The harvesters come back and each of those tubes.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: Is now full of this - um quite um quite like plastic,</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:38:30.37#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>it’s sort of it’s got that sort of plastic resin-y kind of feel.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: But that’s just the beginning. The resin makes this incredible transformation. Which we actually saw Sean and I.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>SC: Hello.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Hi.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Thanks to this guy.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GK: My name is George Kramer, I’m a color man.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: He owns Kremer Pigments in Manhattan and he sells this gamboge.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GK: It is an important yellow.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: Oh it’s amazing when you use it.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: We have it powdered and in the resin form.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: Because when you have a look at it -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GK: Okay this here.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: It’s just like this</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:39:00.46#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>dull - uh [X?] brown color.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Imagine like a - a ball of earwax.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: And you think oh that’s not a very interesting color.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Dusky sort of -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: That’s like a really boring color. But then you put a drop of water on it.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>[clicking noise]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Or you grind it up in a bowl.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: A little water.</p>\r\n<p>GK: - [X?] it looks like this.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Oh.</p>\r\n<p>GK: [XX?]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: And there it is.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Wow!</p>\r\n<p>GK: There’s a little bit of white-</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: It’s bright.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Very bright yellow.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: It’s bright fluorescent yellow.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:39:30.75#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Suddenly it’s like pow!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: I mean it is - quite an exciting color.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Very very [X?]. Wow.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: I I carried one around for ages. Have a look at this color, look how boring it is. Now put a drop of water on it, showing kids, and I was really happy. I even gave it to one kid um who was who was just so delighted. And was only afterwards that I found out that it’s dangerous I mean I I -</p>\r\n<p>JA: Wait it’s dangerous why?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GK: You get bad diarrhea.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>IG: When the guys used to chip it in small pieces- there was actually a time built in</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:40:00.45#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>from the visit the toilet at least once an hour.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Ian Garrett knows that because he was technical director at this art supply company called Windsor and Newton in England. And here’s what really got us interested in all this. Back in the 1980s, Windsor and Newton would get these shipments of gamboge from Cambodia and they would take it to um - to this production room.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>IG: Quite a a dusty area, just had a a table in there -</p>\r\n<p>RK: Big ole table where the workers would sit.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>IG: And then they would have this hammer- put the gamboge pieces on this - lump of iron and then -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:40:30.37#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>hit it [hitting metal sound] and</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>shatter it into into small pieces.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: Cause that’s how they make it into a kind of usable sellable paint.</p>\r\n<p>RK: And one day as one of the workers was chipping it and scraping at the resin -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: There they were.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: They found something in the resin that they didn’t expect.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: Uh they found bullets.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Bullets? Like in the hunks of resin?</p>\r\n<p>VF: Lodged in them yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Sometime in that 2 year drip drip process - toward the end probably as the resin was getting thick,</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:41:00.60#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>a bullet went whizzing through the air, went thwack! Into the goop -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>And stayed there. Actually it wasn’t just one bullet.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>IG: There was a total of about a dozen.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: And those are just the ones he found lying around the factory. There were probably many more.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>IG: They fall into 2 thoughts. There’s a very sharp pointed one about just over an inch long - and then the other type of - a small sort of barrel shapes. Which are about 3 quarters of an inch long. About half a dozen of each. And how they g to there and what they</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:41:30.74#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>pass through on the way into the gamboge I’m not sure.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: What we do know of course is that those years in Cambodia were years of war and murder - a million and a half people died there, most of them in the killing fields. And that’s the same place where you find the gamboge trees.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: I mean it’s shocking really, and it cause it - those were just the random little bamboo tubes on - hanging on the trees. What happened in that grove? What terrible things happened?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:42:00.04#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: The proposition here would be that at some point maybe - cause of the famous killing fields -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: mmhm</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: That some 14 year olds with Kalashnikov rifles after finishing a series of murders or just - shot lots of -bullets?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>VF: They would have just sprayed that grove. In order to get into the little tiny bamboo canisters collecting this gamboge.</p>\r\n<p>RK: Yeah wow.</p>\r\n<p>VF: They would have to have sprayed that entire grove with machine - machine gun bullets. And in that year or two years - um - somebody um</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:42:30.64#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>- murdered people I should think.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>IG: Well I mean they they - it’s not necessarily a battle scenario. It could have been target practice. You see these things hanging on the side of a tree you you you wanna practice your uh - marksmanship.</p>\r\n<p>JA: But there - I mean there is a way in which - there there’s violence in this color. I guess there’s vi - it makes me</p>\r\n<p>IG: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p>JA: wonder about the - does it ever give you pause?</p>\r\n<p>IG: Did it ever give me what sorry?</p>\r\n<p>JA: Pause?</p>\r\n<p>IG: Pause, oh.</p>\r\n<p>JA: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:43:00.06#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>IG: Uh…not really. We were too remote - bought it from a guy in Holland who bought it from an exporter who got it from - lord knows where in uh Cambodia.</p>\r\n<p>JA: But the idea that it could have been attached to - to that - bloodshed. Does that bother you at all?</p>\r\n<p>IG: Are you saying - do I think it’s it’s morally acceptable? Is that what you’re asking me?</p>\r\n<p>JA: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p>IG: Um…no it</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:43:30.75#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>wasn’t Windsor Newton who discovered these things. These things were damaged by customers.</p>\r\n<p>RK: You’re a hard hearted man I feel!</p>\r\n<p>IG: I had never thought about it until you until you pitched it like that.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: As we kept on talking, Ian made it clear, it wasn’t that he hadn’t thought about the violence per se it’s just that - it wasn’t like breaking news to him. They sell some pigments that come straight out of hills that are right in the middle of war zones. Okay. Colors are sometimes soaked in blood.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:44:00.74#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>That’s just how it is.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>IG: On the other side of the coin I’ve made it my career in 40 years to make artists paints on the basis that people who paint tend not to make war. It’s a - a peaceful occupation.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GK: That is more or less what they used in the -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: And George Kremer who runs the paint shop - he was pretty much of the same mind.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GK: Where is their heart -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: You could think of it this way. Imagine the first person to ever find this brilliant yellow. Maybe 10,000 years ago. He’s walking through the</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:44:30.62#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>forest after it’s rained and he sees it there on a tree and he’s amazed so he puts his finger into the yellow and then dabs some on his face and he feels instantly beautiful. Like larger than himself.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GK: It is about being related to something transcendent.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: And that says George is the other side of the coin.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GK: [XXX?] high or whatever. Therefore you - the [XX?] be used for all sort of</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:45:00.99#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>ceremonies.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Marriages, feasts, maybe war paint, to feel invincible. Any moment he suspects that needed to be pulled out of the ordinary - and lifted up.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GK: Whether you need something that is bright, something that is beautiful. And - special. And this yellow - gives you something special. It is a perfect yellow.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:45:30.21#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC CONTINUES</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:46:00.20#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Thank you to Victoria Finley - her book is called Color, short and simple, to the point.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: And to Ian Garrett um - of Windsor and Newton who did not wither</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>under our withering moral attack.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: On the contrary.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Fem voice: This is Amy Lantica from Boston Massachusetts. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P Sloan Foundation.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:46:30.24#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Hey I’m Jad Abumrad.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: I’m Robert Krulwich.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: This is Radiolab. We’re gonna keep going with our show on colors now with</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:47:00.66#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>a story about well -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: The color of the sky.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: The most beautiful color.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Well. [clears throat]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Well I think.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Except red.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Nah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Yeah. You gotta -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: It’s a story that we find really surprising frankly. And it comes from our producer Tim Howard.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Yes. Hello um -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Who uh heard it from - do you wanna -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: set set up who this guy is?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Uh so Guy Deutscher is a linguist and a writer -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: - and uh -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: I came across his book -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: - called Through the Language Glass.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: And he tells this one particular story in it that uh - starts in I think 1858.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:47:30.17#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>With this guy William Gladstone who was incredibly famous politician in England.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: He was 4 times prime minister in the second half of the 19th century.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Every school kid knows who he is even now.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Mm.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: But there’s one thing that not many people know about Gladstone.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Well he was a Homer fanatic.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: As the soldiers marched the glean went dazzling from the magnificent bronze, all about through the upper air to the heavens. </p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: He was a deeply religious man and for him the Iliad</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:48:00.61#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>and all this - they were almost like second Bible.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: Sipping the black blood, the tall shade perceived me. And cried out sharply -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: He read them over and over again throughout his life.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: So he was into Homer.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Yes.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>And so early on in his career. Gladstone decided to write the definitive history of Homer.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: This huge book actually 3 books.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Thousands of pages.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Where he discussed a whole range of of issues relating to Homer and his world.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: And here’s the thing - as he was reading - doing his research and everything -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: He made this very strange discovery.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: That the way Homer talks about color in the Iliad and the Odyssey is extremely odd.</p>\r\n<p>TH: It’s odd?</p>\r\n<p>GD: Very very odd.</p>\r\n<p>TH: How so?</p>\r\n<p>GD: To start with - he uses extremely strange [XX?] colors of simple objects - the most famous one perhaps is -</p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: The wine dark sea.</p>\r\n<p>TH: The wine - wine dark -</p>\r\n<p>GD: The wine dark sea it’s it’s -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:49:00.18#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: It looks like wine.</p>\r\n<p>GD: Looks like wine.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Is it possibly like a - a a poetic kind of thing?</p>\r\n<p>GD: That’s what you would naturally think but the other thing he calls um - wine colored um - oxen.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>[oxen noise]</p>\r\n<p>[laughter]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: But but it’s more than just wine. Take the color violet which to me and probably to you is like -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Purple - purple?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Light purple.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: When Homer uses it -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: He talks about the sheep.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: The cyclops rams were -</p>\r\n<p>GD: And the cyclops caves as having -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: A dark violet wool. </p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: But that’s just fantasy I mean -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:49:30.40#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: But the other thing that he also says is violet is iron.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Iron.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: So.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Okay.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Chew on that.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: [laughs]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Or how bout this one. What is both the color of honey and the color of uh - faces pale with fear.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Uh no idea.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: If you ask Homer those are -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Green.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: Green honey?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: He didn’t call his forest green, he didn’t call his leaves green - it all seems to be wrong.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: And um this was totally puzzling to Gladstone.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Homer was Gladstone’s</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:50:00.44#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>absolute hero so he found it difficult to understand or accept why someone who was so perceptive would use such defective terms as Gladstone called it.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: So he starts going through the Iliad and the Odyssey again page by page. And he counts how many time each color appears.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: You mean like how many times he uses the word black or blue or whatever?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah. And um it only takes a couple pages for him to notice -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: The predominance of black of white.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:50:30.38#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: That the term black -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: Black days. Black carrion flies. Black blood. Under his black brows. Black black black black black black black -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Occurred about 170 times in both books.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Huh.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: White arms. White clad. The white sail. White raft.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Occurred about 100 times.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: White white white -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: But - red?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: A blood red serpent.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Only clocks in at about 13 times.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: The red wine to the gods.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: That’s a big drop.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Yellow?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: Dawn in her yellow robe.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Under 10 times. Green?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:51:00.16#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: His teeth chatter in green fear.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Also under 10.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Hm</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: And then - Gladstone realizes something crazy. The color blue?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: Um…[pages flipping]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Zero times.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: What?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: There’s just nowhere that describes the color blue in any of Homer’s poems.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: He does not use the word blue at all?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: No blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: No blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Not even once.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Nope. So Gladstone thought</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:51:30.64#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<li></li>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Bizarre.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: And he started looking in other classic Greek texts too. And there he kept finding all of these strange uses of color.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Violet hair and things like that.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: And after thinking about this for a long time -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Gladstone concluded that Homer was colorblind.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>But also that all the Greeks were colorblind.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Wait he thought all of them were color blind?</p>\r\n<p>GD: Yes. That they saw the world</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:52:00.68#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>in black and white - maybe with a touch of red.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: His thought was that they were straining to see these other colors that were kind of just outside of their reach. And then - their kid - would inherit that effort. Or their kid would just be a little bit better.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Oh so that’s how we got color.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: So Homer Jr would be able to see a little bit of yellow cause Homer tried really hard to see yellow and -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: And then Homer the third would be better than Homer the second and so -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah and then this would happen again and again every generation down</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:52:30.43#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>3000 years to the present day.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: It does seem the only you know the only the only possible explanation.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: That’s ridiculous. That’s ridiculous!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: We know today of course that that there - our color vision goes back probably about 30 million years.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: You know, so like when we were climbing trees.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Exactly. So um generally -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: People mocked him.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: No one took him seriously.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: So then how</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: did people explain the no blue in Homer thing.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:53:00.81#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Well so here the plot thickens.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>10 years after Gladstone’s Homer debacle, this other guy -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: A German Jewish, philologist called um - Lazarus Geiger.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Lazarus Geiger.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: A German Jewish what did he say?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: A philologist which I thought was a linguist. It basically means he studies ancient texts. He finds pretty much the same kind of weird stuff that Gladstone did. But he finds it not just in Ancient Greek texts but all over the place.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Fem voice: Sorry this one?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: He looked at uh the old Icelandic sagas.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Fem voice: [Icelandic]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Ancient Chinese.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Fem voice: [Chinese]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Ancient Vedic hymns.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: [Vedic]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: the Bible.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Fem voice: [Hebrew?]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: And surprise surprise what did he find there?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: No blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Even the Bible had no blue?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: In the original Hebrew.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>BW: [Hebrew]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: It has no blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Huh.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: So what where - what’s this room?</p>\r\n<p>BW: Right now we’re in the public catalogue room.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:54:00.37#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: I actually went to the NY public library and talked to this librarian.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>BW: [German]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Who can speak German.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: [German]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: And we got out Geiger’s book.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>BW: Development history of mankind.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Wait a second I know this voice. Really?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah that’s that’s my girlfriend.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>BW: Um my name is Brooke Watkins and I’m a librarian at the New York Public Library.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: She helped me find some very cool passages in Geiger’s book.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Let’s see it first - let’s do it in German.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Geiger has this amazing quotation.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>BW: Okay, [German]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:54:30.43#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: But in the Vedic poems.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>BW: [German?]</p>\r\n<p>TH: And what does this say?</p>\r\n<p>BW: These hymns of more than 10,000 lines are brimming with descriptions of the heavens. Scarcely is there any subject about more frequently the sun and reddening dawns play of color day and night cloud and lightening - the air and the ether are unfolded before us. And over and over in splendor and vivid fullness. But there’s only one thing</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:55:00.65#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>that no one would ever learn from those ancient songs who do not already know it. And that is that the sky is blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: It gets weirded.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Mm</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: You ready?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: I’m - yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: You all ready for this?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: I’m totally ready.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: All right. Cause Geiger then wondered all right if there’s no blue in any of these old texts then when did blue come into these languages?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Yeah</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: So he did this massive analysis to trace when each color term was first introduced to each language.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:55:30.68#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>And what he found was -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: The order at which languages seem to acquire these color terms is not entirely random.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: First black and white - every language has black and white. Then when they get their first color term.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Red always comes first.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Always red.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: After red it’s always yellow.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Really?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: And then green and blue only at the very end.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: So black white red green yellow and then blue?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: And that’s universal?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Well as people</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:56:00.52#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>discovered more and more languages they found some exceptions. But a couple things held, even from Geiger. Out of these colors red is always first and blue is always last.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Why?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Well.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: I mean why would there be an order at all and why would blue always be last?</p>\r\n<p>TH: Well here’s where you get to the guessing part.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Okay.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Guy thinks it might have to do with a couple of things. First - in Homer’s world, you wouldn’t have actually been exposed to a lot of blue things.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Actually if you think about it blue is extremely rare in nature.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Blue foods?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: No</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Blue animals?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Blue animals -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: How bout plants?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: There’s a few blu - blue plants.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Like what?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Uh…</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Flowers that are really blue are extremely rare.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Lot of flowers that we think of as blue - they’re actually -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Artificial flowers.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: We made them blue. Uh -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Genetically made them blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: What about blue eyes?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Blue eyes at the time were in short supply - among the Greeks.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: But here’s where we get to Guy’s main point.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: He says you don’t really need a word for a color until you can make that color.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:57:00.47#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Reliably. And the reason that red might have been first is because red -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Is apparently one of the easiest to produce.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: You can just take a dried piece of red clay and you can use it as a crayon which is why paints made out of ochre go back something like 60,000 years. And blue?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Blue is the hardest of all. For thousands of years no one had it.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: One exception, the Egyptians.</p>\r\n<p>TH: Ohh.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: The Egyptians. And they and only they had their own word for blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: So that’s it? That’s your answer?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:57:30.76#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Like - tell - no blue dyes, no blue words?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: That’s not interesting?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: I - I want more than that.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Wait what do you mean more?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: I don’t know - something more to say than just about dyes.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: All right well -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>[music playing]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Here you go. As I was calling around I ran into something that made me think -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc voice: [X?] is that 2?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: A little differently about Gladstone’s whole theory of color blindness.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Hm.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Called this guy named Jules Davidoff.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JD: Professor of Neuropsychology, London University.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: And a few years back,</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:58:00.18#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>he got interested in this particular tribe in Namibia. Called the Himba.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JD: The Himba. Like many languages in the world they don’t have a different word for blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: You might think of them as like a very poor stand in for Homer.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: All right</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: And to make a long story short. Jules went to Namibia. He sat down with a bunch of members of the Himba tribe, whipped out of a laptop and showed them 12 colored squares.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JD: All identical except for one.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: And there’s actually some really cool video footage of his research assistant doing this. And they asked them very simply -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JD: Which one is different?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:58:30.24#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Now you look at this and you see that 11 of these squares are green.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JD: A color we would call green -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Very green. And the other one is blue. This blue one it’s it’s shouting - it’s like hey!! I’m blue! Over here I’m blue!</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JD: It’s easy enough for us to do.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: It’s a no brainer. But the Himba who don’t have a separate word for blue in their language -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JD: They find this distinction a little difficult.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: When they stare at this screen - they just stare</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:59:00.56#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>and stare -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: They don’t see the difference between the blue and the green?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: No.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Well is there something wrong with their eyes?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JD: No definitely not. We completely rule that out. They don’t see color - the individual colors differently.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: But then wait -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JD: It’s so easy to say they’re seeing different colors to us, and they’re not.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Well then how does he explain it?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JD: Okay. When we when we decide to put colors together in a group.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: And then give those colors a word like blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>CHOIR IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Choir: Blue</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#00:59:30.96#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JD: Something happens</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: He says what happens is that now that there’s a category for that thing - the thing in the category jumps out. It gets louder and louder to your eyes. The category actually feeds back on your perception - so that you notice it more.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: You’re saying that having the word for blue unlocks your ability to see blue?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>CHOIR OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Uh I mean it - that’s how it feels to me and Jules says -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JD: No it’s not quite that.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: He says without the word you’re still seeing the blue no matter what.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#01:00:00.53#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>You’re just not um noticing it. Your your eyes are just kind of glossing right over it.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: So you don’t see it.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: [laughs] It’s hard it’s it’s - it’s harder to spot sees Jules.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: But whatever I don’t quite understand that difference but -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: The blue would not jump out and and say hi five! The way it does with us.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: But if it doesn’t</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Um</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: jump out to that extent - then - this is starting to sound very Gladstone-y to me.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: [laughs] Yeah</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: I mean maybe he was a little right! Like cause if Homer had no word for blue and the word</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#01:00:30.63#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>somehow enables the blueness of the blue - then maybe his world was less blue than it would be for us. I mean maybe the blue went through his eyes in the same way but it - perhaps didn’t get into his mind in the same way.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah blue didn’t matter.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Wait a second. Do you know where this breaks down?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Where?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: The [bleeped out] sky! I mean you look up and there’s the bluest blue in the world and then it’s right there above our heads it’s been there since the dawn of time.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#01:01:00.13#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>So why wouldn’t blue matter more. I mean why wouldn’t it be the first color instead of the last?</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Well that’s what I thought too and I asked Guy about that.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah why is the sky blue is is the the the first question that you always think of.</p>\r\n<p>GD: Exact - allegedly the first question that all children ask.</p>\r\n<p>TH: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p>GD: But I wanted to see how obvious or striking this blueness of the sky is. So I decided to make an experiment.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Guy has a very young daughter.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: About 18 months. She was learning to speak.</p>\r\n<p>TH: What’s her name?</p>\r\n<p>GD: Alma.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#01:01:30.12#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>I talked a lot about colors with Alma and taught her all the colors including blue. And we would play all these games that that dads play with their children.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: You know pointing at objects.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: I would point at a blue question and ask her what’s the color of this - she would say boo. Boo for blue.</p>\r\n<p>TH: Oh okay. [laughs]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: Soon enough Alma was a total pro she could identify any color.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Show me the red object show me the this - and -</p>\r\n<p>TH: Right</p>\r\n<p>GD: The only thing I didn’t do and I asked my wife not to do was ever mention that the sky was blue.</p>\r\n<p>TH: [laughs]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#01:02:00.28#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: That was the setup.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC OUT</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: So one day Guy and Alma were taking a stroll and they’re practicing the colors.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: What’s this tree what’s this what’s this - and then I pointed at the sky and said - what color is that? And…she wouldn’t give me any answer.</p>\r\n<p>TH: Huh.</p>\r\n<p>GD: Although she had just a second before would - was happily telling me that something was blue and red or green. She just looked up and looked at me incomprehendingly. Sort of - what are you talking about?</p>\r\n<p>TH: She thought you were kidding?</p>\r\n<p>GD: Um -</p>\r\n<p>TH: I think she didn’t understand</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#01:02:30.73#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>what I was on about.</p>\r\n<p>TH: Huh.</p>\r\n<p>GD: In retrospect there was no object there. There was nothing with color for her.</p>\r\n<p>TH: You’re just pointing into the void basically.</p>\r\n<p>GD: Pointing into nothingness. So she wouldn’t say anything.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: But Guy kept asking every single time they went out.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Of course I would do it only when the sky was blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: And she would never answer him. And this went on for 2 months.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: And then finally she did consent to give me a color name but it wasn’t blue, it was white.</p>\r\n<p>TH: [laughs]</p>\r\n<p>GD: For for a few times she said white and then finally after month and a half or two more</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#01:03:00.71#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>months she she said blue for the first time.</p>\r\n<p>TH: Wow.</p>\r\n<p>GD: But even then it wasn’t consistently blue. So she - then she said once blue - mm no white mm no blue.</p>\r\n<p>TH: Did she eventually decide though - you know what dad it is blue.</p>\r\n<p>GD: Well no she never said it this way but eventually when I asked it became consistently blue. So she just would say blue.</p>\r\n<p>TH: Okay.</p>\r\n<p>GD: This was for me - really the point where I I could you know convince myself - convince at least my heart that this sort of</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#01:03:30.08#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>allegedly perfect example of blue um is not -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>TH: not so perfect.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: So you know for Homer who never ever</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>probably saw a blue object except the sky and the sea - never had a dad who sort of went on about blue objects and asking what the color of the sky was - the fact that he didn’t lose sleep over it - doesn’t seem so strange. Anymore.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: you know it’s kind of - now that I’ve heard this I’m a little - I’m a little -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#01:04:00.53#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Uh - [rueing?] the moment when when Alma decided the sky was blue. Let her have whatever color she wants it to be. Doesn’t have to be blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Weirdly then color is a loss of innocence.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: It’s like</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Kinda.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: having something fixed that for a while is just between you and your frenzied heart you know just -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: And the sky is many colors truthfully. On the other hand though - I’m disagreeing with myself now. If we all agree the sky is blue then that’s something we can share - that she can share.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: And then she’s in</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#01:04:30.19#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>conversation.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: And then eventually she’ll understand you know - this kind of blue.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC IN</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: Yeah there aren’t blue moons but but there - but you know what one would - you know what one would - you know what it feels like.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Oh yeah.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: It’s not a happy night.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Mm mm</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC CHANGES</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#01:05:00.56#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC CONTINUES</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#01:05:30.47#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC CONTINUES</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Masc Singer: - call me Mr. Blue</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: Still think it’s the most beautiful color.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC CONTINUES</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>RK: I just took red just to be contrary - I’m trying to think what my favorite color is, I don’t -</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC CONTINUES</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#01:06:00.47#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: I wanna thank all the musicians who uh were so generous to let us use their music this hour and joined in in our covers of the rainbow project.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>MUSIC CHANGES</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>JA: You heard Reggie Watts with Rainbow Connection. Barbara Bennery with Over the Rainbow, Lonesome Organist with Green Onions, Nymph with Brown Rice, Yellow Ostrich with Sound and Vision, Rya Brass Band with Painted Black, Nico Mulley with Big Yellow Taxi, Sherwater with Black with the Color,</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#01:06:30.38#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Eric Freelander with Blue in Green, Marcie Playground with Whiter Shade of Pale, The Heat with Mellow Yellow, Tao Win with Blue, Snow Blink you just heard with Blue Moon. Dan Deacon right here with Colors. Busmans Holiday, Mr. Blue and our very own Tim Howard, aka Soultero - performing Green River.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>We’ll be doing some cool things with these songs for the moment. Visit Radiolab.org.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#01:07:00.32#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>GD: Hello Radiolab, this is Guy Deutscher.</p>\r\n<p>BW: This is Brooke Watkins.</p>\r\n<p>JL: This is Jason [Lecroy?]</p>\r\n<p>GD: Here’s the notice. Radiolab is produced by - I don’t know how to pronounce this - Jad Abumrad -</p>\r\n<p>BW: Our staff includes Ellen Horne, Soren Wheeler,</p>\r\n<p>GD: Pat Walters, Tim Howard,</p>\r\n<p>JL: Brenna Farrell,</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#01:07:30.24#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>BW: Lynn Levy,</p>\r\n<p>GD: Dylan Keefe,</p>\r\n<p>JL: Melissa O Donnell and Sean Cole.</p>\r\n<p>VF: With help from Douglas T Smith, Brendan McMullon, and Rafael Bennin.</p>\r\n<p>GD: Okay.</p>\r\n<p>VF: Special thanks to Sarah Montague,</p>\r\n<p>JL: Paul Heck, Nick Capudiche,</p>\r\n<p>VF: Ryan Levitt,</p>\r\n<p>JL: Ivan Zimmerman,</p>\r\n<p>VF: [XX?]</p>\r\n<p>GD: [XX?]</p>\r\n<p>BW: Winter Woodie,</p>\r\n<p>JL: [XXX?] Walter,</p>\r\n<p>VF: And Carver Throdson.</p>\r\n<p>GD: Thanks, bye.</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>Fem robot voice: [End of message.]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>[beep]</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>#01:07:55.02#</p>\r\n<p><span><span> </span></span></p>\r\n<p>[THE END]</p>\r\n<p><span><br /><br /></span></p>",
"twitter-headline": "Colors",
"twitter-handle": "Radiolab",
"url": "http://www.wnycstudios.org/story/211119-colors/",
"video": null
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"type": "story",
"id": 211119
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You can go to Radiolab.org and subscribe to it there or, you know, wherever you get your podcasts, search for Radiolab For Kids and you'll find it. And we're gonna keep adding to this feed. And just to kick the whole thing off, I thought I would play one episode that's in that group that we've curated. This is one of the first Radiolabs I ever made, and the reason I wanted to start with this one is, you know, it's funny, I've been having a lot of conversations in the last few weeks with my oldest kid who's 10. He's been asking me a lot of questions about space and black holes, and I found it to be a really comforting topic of conversation right now. And I don't know why, maybe it's something about the scale. You know, we're in this moment where we're thinking about shifting of scales, giant pandemics sweeping the globe, how humans are so tiny and powerless at times. And all of this can be very scary. 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It just adds to the relaxation of it, you know?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>The night I visited this guy, Ron was about one of 20 enthusiasts huddled over astral maps, staring through telescopes of all sizes.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JAD: </em></strong><em><span>This is quite a -- quite a telescope you've got.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Some so big you needed a ladder.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>CHILD: </em></strong><em><span>Wow, that's a big cluster of stars.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>RON: </em></strong><em><span>Yes, it certainly is.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JAD: </em></strong><em><span>Do you get attached to certain stars?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JOHN: </em></strong><em><span>Oh, yeah. Yeah, you do. You begin -- you know, the first ones you ever found and stuff like that.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JAD: </em></strong><em><span>Do you remember your first?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JOHN: </em></strong><em><span>Yeah, Albireo was one of my -- I really like. Ron's gonna show it to you, I think.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JAD: </em></strong><em><span>I didn't catch your name, actually.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JOHN: </em></strong><em><span>John. John.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>RON: </em></strong><em><span>What it is is that to the naked eye, Albireo just looks like a really faint single star, but when you look at it through a telescope ...</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JOHN: </em></strong><em><span>Just have a look in there.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JAD: </em></strong><em><span>Yeah, yeah. Oh my God, they're so bright! Like little flashlights.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Through the telescope, Albireo looked like a headlight, bright and flat and close. Very immediate. But that was nothing compared to what happened next. A woman walks up, points her finger at the star ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JAD: </em></strong><em><span>Okay. So is that -- is that the one up here?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>... and touches it.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JOHN: </em></strong><em><span>That one right there.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Touches the star.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JAD: </em></strong><em><span>That's really cool. [laughs] That was one of the coolest things I've -- describe what you just did, please.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>LINDA: </em></strong><em><span>I turned on my green laser and I pointed it at the star.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>It was one of the coolest things I have ever, ever, ever seen. Her name was Linda. She had a pen that was a laser, and when she turned it on a focused, bright green beam of light sprung from her hand to the star like a long green finger. She literally touched the star. And for a moment, I forgot the ground underneath my feet and that that star Albireo was 50 million light-years away. It seemed right there.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JAD: </em></strong><em><span>So tell me -- I mean, what do you see when you look up? Besides, you know, nebulas and stars and star clusters, but what do you sort of look for exactly?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>RON: </em></strong><em><span>Well, you can really see sort of like where you are in the universe, or at least in our own galaxy. And it makes like a very interesting perspective for yourself, you know, and like, what life is like here and what life must be like in other worlds and whether or not there's other planets out there with people or different life forms that we can't even comprehend.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>This is Radiolab. I'm Jad Abumrad. Today on the program, we're gonna project our minds out there to the great beyond and ask some basic questions. Here to help as always ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT KRULWICH: </strong><span>Hi.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Is Robert Krulwich.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>And in this hour we discover how big -- oh, sorry. And in this hour we find ourselves in space. We discover how immense, how huge space is, and then we ask ourselves, \"Now, where does that leave us?\"</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>We are a speck on a speck on a speck on a speck.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>And as astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson will remind us later in the program, it is difficult for little specks like us to find walking, talking, intelligent specks somewhere else in the universe. But say what you will, we are trying.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Speaking of which, let's begin by rewinding the clock back to 1977.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Okay.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>This was a big year for the space program, because in August of that year NASA launched a spacecraft carrying a gold record. You remember this, right?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>I do. I remember.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>The record carried a message from us to them. Our story. Now it was Carl Sagan ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Carl Sagan: </em></strong><em><span>The cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Who led the team that made the record, and that team included -- actually, it was headed by Annie Druyan. I visited Annie at her home in Ithaca, New York, and we sat in the backyard near a waterfall in the same spot she says where Carl himself would sit and become so absorbed in what he was reading that he would not notice a deer standing right next to him.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ANNIE DRUYAN: </em></strong><em><span>My name is Annie Druyan, and I was honored to be the Creative Director of the Voyager Interstellar Message Project, which began in early 1977.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JAD: </em></strong><em><span>Now how did this come about? I think about the project now, and it's so exciting to think about. I mean, it's such a romantic idea. Did you know that at the time?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ANNIE DRUYAN: </em></strong><em><span>Absolutely. We felt, first of all, that this was a kind of sacred trust. That here we were, half a dozen very flawed human beings with huge -- huge holes in our knowledge of all of these subjects, building a cultural Noah's Ark. It was a chance to tell something of what life on Earth was like to beings of perhaps a thousand million years from now, because the -- the Voyager engineers were saying this record will have a shelf life of a billion years. If that didn't raise goosebumps then you'd have to be made of wood. It was also the -- the season that Carl Sagan and I fell so madly in love with each other. And here we were taking on this mythic challenge and knowing that before it was done two spacecraft would lift off from the planet Earth moving at an average speed of 35,000 miles an hour for the next thousand million years, and on it would be a kiss, a mother's first words to her newborn baby, Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, greetings in the 59 most populous human languages, as well as one non-human language, the greetings of the humpback whales. And it was a sacred undertaking, because it was saying we want to be citizens of the cosmos. We want you to know about us.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JAD: </em></strong><em><span>Tell me about the moment you fell in love with Carl Sagan. You said it was during the Voyager compilation.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ANNIE DRUYAN: </em></strong><em><span>Yes, it was. It was on June 1st, 1977. I had been looking for some time for that piece of Chinese music that we could put on the Voyager record and not feel like idiots for having done so. And I was very excited because I'd finally found a ethnomusicologist composer at Columbia University who told me without a moment's hesitation that this piece, Flowing Streams, which was represented to me as one of the oldest pieces of Chinese music, 2,500 years old, was the piece we should put on the record. So I called Carl who was traveling. He was in Tucson, Arizona, giving a talk. And we had been alone many times during the making of the record and as friends for three years, and neither of us had ever said anything to the other. We were both involved with other people. We'd had these wonderful, soaring conversations, but we had both been completely just professional about everything and as friends. And he wasn't there, left a message. Hour later, phone rings. Pick up the phone and I hear this wonderful voice, and he said, \"I get back to my hotel room and I find this message and it says Annie called. And I say to myself, 'Why didn't you leave me this message 10 years ago?'\" And my heart completely skipped a beat. I can still remember it so perfectly. And I said, \"For keeps?\" And he said, \"You mean, get married?\" And I said, \"Yes.\" And we had never kissed, we had never, you know, even had any kind of personal discussion before. We both hung up the phone and I just screamed out loud. I remember it so well, because it was this great eureka moment. It was just like a scientific discovery. And then the phone rang, you know? Like -- and it was Carl, and he said, \"I just want to make sure. That really happened. We're getting married, right?\" And I said, \"Yeah, we're getting married.\" He said, \"Okay. Just wanted to make sure.\" And the spacecraft lifted off on August 20th, and August 22nd we told everyone involved. And we were together from that moment until his death in 1996 in December.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JAD: </em></strong><em><span>Wow, talk about romantic, my God!</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ANNIE DRUYAN: </em></strong><em><span>It was so romantic. And part of my feeling about Voyager obviously, and part of what I was feeling in the recording of my brain waves, my heart, my eyes, everything in that meditation on the record. I had asked Carl whether or not it would be possible to compress the impulses in one's brain and nervous system into sound and then put that sound on the record and then think that perhaps the extraterrestrials of the future would be able to reconstitute that data into thought. And he looked at me on a beautiful May day in New York City and said, \"Well, you know, a thousand million years is a long time, you know? Why don't you go do it, because who knows, you know? Who knows what's possible in a thousand million years?\" And so my brain waves and REM, every little sound that my body was making was recorded at Bellevue Hospital in New York. This was two days after Carl and I declared our love for each other. And so what I often think is that maybe a hundred million years from now, you know, somebody flags that record down, and I always wonder because part of what I was thinking in this meditation was about the wonder of love and of being in love. And to know it's on those two spacecraft. Even now in my -- whenever I'm down, you know, I'm thinking, \"And still they move. 35,000 miles an hour, leaving our solar system for the great wide open sea of interstellar space.\"</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Billions of years from now, the sun will have reduced this planet to a charred ashy ball, but that record with Ann Druyan's brain waves and heartbeat on it will still be out there somewhere intact in some remote region of the Milky Way preserving a murmur of an ancient civilization that once flourished on a distant planet.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Two hearts on a wing. Very nice.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>It's lovely, right?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Yeah, it is. Although there are six plus billion earthlings right now, and the best thing I think about Earth is that we're so various.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Right.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>So you're gonna get six-plus billion versions of being an Earthling.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Yeah, like if you were Annie Druyan and Carl Sagan, what would your recipe of us be? So we asked a bunch of people.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Who?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Comedian Margaret Cho, you know her?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Uh-huh.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Neil Gaiman, this graphic novelist. Michael Cunningham, an author. The very famous chef Alice Waters. They all sort of, you know, told us what they would send. I'll play you one. Not gonna play all ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Yeah, just one. I don't want to hear them all.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>It would take too long. You can hear all of them on our website actually, Radiolab.org. But here is one guy we asked. He's a composer.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>PHILIP GLASS: </em></strong><em><span>This is Philip Glass speaking. The reason I've chosen Bach is that he had the ability to do two things at once. One was to -- to deal concretely with the language of music, almost you could say grammar of music. At the same time, while he was doing a lot, say, with one part of his brain, he was able to create music that we empathize with. He takes you by the hand as it were, and walks you into states of being that you didn't even know existed. Bach goes out in the spaceship. Whether anybody can hear it or not, we'll put it in the spaceship. But I would also recommend strongly that we bring music in from other world traditions, whether it's from Africa, or whether it's kind of a throat singing that you might hear in Siberia or in the Arctic, or wonderful flute playing that you might hear in South India. I was in India in 1966 or '67, and I was in a small village in the Himalayas called Kalimpong on the border of Bhutan and Tibet. And a friend of mine, a rug dealer, I had been in his shop numerous times to look at his rugs, ran out of the shop and said, \"Oh, Mr. Glass come with me. I want to show you a picture.\" And he had gotten ahold of a film clip of Gandhi. It was a march he took in the '30s called the -- it was known as the Salt March. The English had put a tax on the use of salt. Thousands and thousands of people joined him and they walked into the sea, and they took their garments, put them into the water and harvested the salt.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Mahatma Gandhi: </em></strong><em><span>There is an indefinable mysterious power that pervades everything. I feel it, though I do not see it.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>PHILIP GLASS: </em></strong><em><span>And I saw the picture of this tiny little man really, surrounded by thousands upon thousands of people leading this march. And it was so moving. I think what you have to do is get that piece of footage. It articulates in this very simple act how societies change, how people that appear to be powerless and insignificant can bring about huge changes.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Jad here. Robert and I will continue in a moment.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>CANDACE: </em></strong><em><span>I am Candace Crotty calling from St. Paul, Minnesota. Radiolab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation and by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>This is Radiolab. I'm Jad Abumrad.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>And I'm Robert Krulwich.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>And this hour were talking about space, sending stuff into space, little messages in bottles or capsules as it were, so that the extraterrestrials of the future might one day find it.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>If there are any.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Well, yes. Yes. But surely there are. I mean, someday Anne Druyan's space capsule is bound to run into someone and they'll know about us.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Well I -- just a second here. I know that the Anne story was beautiful and that you're in some kind of romantic haze ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>But hey!</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>But if you would just get a little more cold-hearted here about solid facts, you might feel differently about this whole thing.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>What do you mean?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Well, what do you think is the likelihood of Anne's message of love ever being read by an intelligent alien somewhere in the universe?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>I see where you're going with this. What do you have to ask that question? I mean, it's just a gesture. It's like a romantic thing.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>No, no. This is an attempt, I think, to be fair to her, to have a real conversation. She wants someone to hear about this, but the chances are so remote when you consider the vastness of space. Suppose for example, you wanted to visit just -- I don't know, make it easy, the very next star to us, okay? Actually, that's too lucky. To meet a civilization, I think it would be so odd to come out and find one in the very first stop. Let's go four stars out to a star called Zeta Tucanae.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>I see. You've been digging up on this.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>I look -- I admit I looked it up. If we increase the speed of the Voyager capsule, Anne Druyan's message, from 35,000 miles an hour, that's how fast she was going, right?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Yeah, that's right.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Increase that speed to, say, a million miles an hour, how long do you think would it take for you to get to Zeta Tucanae?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>300 years.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Mm. 30,000 years.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Seriously? Whoa!</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>This, Jad Abumrad, is a 1,200 generation trip. Do you know where the Abumrads were 1,200 generations ago?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Where?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>They were living in a cave beating on a drum. That's what they were doing. So imagine a space trip in which you have to go forward 1,200 generations. That's a long trip.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>You're such a downer.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>[laughs] Well, you think that's tough? Listen to this. There's a whole 'nother problem we're gonna have to deal with.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Oh boy.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Not the problem of distance. In this case, there's a problem of time. We have one of those too. Every civilization has an arc. You can think of it in threes.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ANNOUNCER: </em></strong><em><span>Step one.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[monkey sounds]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ANNOUNCER: </em></strong><em><span>Step two.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, radio:</em></strong><em><span> Let's welcome Seth Jackson and his Chesterfield Band of Florida.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ANNOUNCER: </em></strong><em><span>And step three.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[Explosion. Man screaming.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>[laughs] What the hell was that?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Well, a million years ago we were practically apes.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[monkey sounds]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>We'd hardly begun to have conversation. Now we have technology. We have radio and TV, and the universe can hear us.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, radio:</em></strong><em><span> How do you do?]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>But how long will it be do you think, before either from global warming or from some kind of war we're ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[Explosion. Man screaming.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>The way the news has been recently? Days, weeks.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>[laughs]</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>In any case.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>I'm gonna guess, like, a hundred million years or ten million years, but that's still a flash of time in a universe. Now suppose instead of one civilization, let's have two civilizations, another one out there.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Mm-hmm.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>If they arrive on Earth ready to talk and we're, oh ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[monkey sounds]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>... then there's no way to have the conversation. Or on the other hand, if they arrive on Earth after ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[Explosion. Man screaming.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>... then there's nobody to talk to.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>I see.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>And in a 14-billion-year universe with each civilization lasting, you know, only 10 million years, what are the chances of two civilizations lining up in perfect synchrony so they can have a conversation? It's almost mathematically impossible.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Yeah, fine, fine. But you have to keep something in mind though, right?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>What?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>As a rule, people who make the argument you're making right now, pessimists as it were, as a rule those people are usually proven wrong, It's -- that's always how it goes. Let me play you something.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>TIM FERRIS: </em></strong><em><span>Well, in the history of human navigation lots of things have seemed too lonely and too far away until someone did them.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>This is the guy who produced the Voyager record. His name is Tim Ferris.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>TIM FERRIS: </em></strong><em><span>I mean, settling Polynesia in canoes, navigating by the stars and the currents alone, and hitting a tiny island after crossing hundreds or even thousands of miles of open ocean, that's a pretty lonely, scary thing to do and yet thousands of Polynesians did it. So I don't know what our future in interstellar space flight will be, but it's -- it is important to keep in mind that the record of people who said that this or that journey of exploration is impossible or ill-advised, historically those sorts of predictions have not fared very well.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Yes, so you just hold your horses, right?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Well I mean look, Tim is talking about the Pacific Ocean which is big, but I'm talking about the universe here. Mine is a much, much bigger space and therefore a much, much, much bigger problem. And when I want to ask questions about space ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Yes.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>I usually go to this guy.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>BRIAN GREENE: </em></strong><em><span>See, now I realize what's happening here. I hear you through that speaker, but not through my headphones.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Who is this?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>This is Brian Greene, Professor of Mathematics and of Physics at Columbia University.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Are we -- are we on? Okay.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>So Jad, I said to Brian if we've got a spacecraft crawling through this vast, vast empty universe, how long a trip is it for just to start from wherever it is now to the -- to the end of the universe? And by the way, what is -- where is the end of the universe?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>BRIAN GREENE: </em></strong><em><span>That's a very natural question. You know, in most environments you can walk for a while, but then you hit the end, you hit the end of the city, the end of the state, the end of the country. But when it comes to the universe, we believe that there's probably no edge. There is no end. Now how do you picture that? Well, one possibility is that maybe that the universe just goes on forever.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Mm-hmm.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>BRIAN GREENE: </em></strong><em><span>Space may just carry on, you can just keep on going and you'll just never run out of space. The other possibility is it could be that you walk off into space for a while and you keep on walking, and after a while you realize that you've actually circled back to your starting point. Sort of like on the surface of the Earth, you don't find an edge. You can't fall off the Earth's surface because when you walk ultimately you'll come back to your starting point. That idea may apply to the fabric of space, to the entire cosmos.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Although the Earth analogy is a little insufficient because when I'm walking in Central Park, I am on the edge of the Earth, because when I look down I see Earth, but when I look up I see non-Earth, I see gas around the earth. So I'm at the edge.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>BRIAN GREENE: </em></strong><em><span>Well ...</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>It's as if I were on a balloon. I'm on the surface of the balloon looking out at non-balloonness.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>BRIAN GREENE: </em></strong><em><span>Yeah, that's where the analogy fails. If you're on the surface of the Earth, you can jump off, you can jump up.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Yeah.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>BRIAN GREENE: </em></strong><em><span>So it feels like you're on an edge. But in the universe there is no notion of jumping off because there is nothing beyond the space that we inhabit. It is all there is, and there is nothing outside of it.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>And now to make things even harder for our little capsule traveling through space, we now know that space, that the universe and the space that it is is expanding, constantly expanding. So imagine our little craft, all alone in nothingness, and every minute there's more nothingness and more nothingness and more nothingness and more ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Has this always been happening?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>BRIAN GREENE: </em></strong><em><span>We think it's been happening since the very beginning. So if the Big Bang was the origin of the universe then this expansion has been going on for 13.7 billion years.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>So there's more space all the time?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>BRIAN GREENE: </em></strong><em><span>Yes.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Does that mean that it takes a longer time to go from one part of the universe to another, is that ...</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>BRIAN GREENE: </em></strong><em><span>Absolutely. Absolutely.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>So when you say something like the universe is expanding, what that seems to mean to you is that the empty spaces in the universe are getting bigger?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>BRIAN GREENE: </em></strong><em><span>Yes. So the -- the intuitive but wrong picture would be that you picture the universe expanding into a pre-existing space, a pre-existing realm that the universe is now filling.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Like a balloon.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>BRIAN GREENE: </em></strong><em><span>Like a balloon. Filling, say, the room in which you're blowing it up.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Yeah.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>BRIAN GREENE: </em></strong><em><span>But that imagery is wrong in the following way: It's not that the universe is expanding into a pre-existing space, it's that as the universe expands it creates more space. It creates the new space that it then in habits.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Does that mean that there's no middle of the universe?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>BRIAN GREENE: </em></strong><em><span>Yes. The old idea was that there is a central point in the universe, and the old idea was that we were at that central point in the universe. But in the current way and more modern way of thinking about the universe, there is no center. The universe is actually expanding, but it's not expanding from a certain point in space. All of space is stretching uniformly.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Brian Greene is Professor of Physics and Mathematics at Columbia University. This leaves us in a sort of strange position.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Yeah, lonely position.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>In the sense that we have this little capsule riding somewhere in a space which just keeps changing. We don't know where it is or where we are relative to other things, and whatever we know is changing all the time. It used to be so different. Neil deGrasse Tyson who runs the Hayden Planetarium in New York City says once upon a time we knew where we were, at least we thought we knew where we were, and we were the stars.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Well, before Copernicus, the idea of our place in the universe was largely accepted to be the center. It looked that way, for sure. You stand here on Earth and look up and the sun rises and sets and the moon rises and sets and the stars rise and set and the planets rise and set. When Copernicus came around, he put the sun in the middle of the known universe, allowing the planets to then go around the sun, relegating Earth to the status of a planet being one of these objects that goes around the Sun.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Now that was a very dangerous idea at the time, apparently.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Yes, because that idea conflicted with all prevailing interpretation of scripture. It had deep societal ramifications, and Copernicus knew this. He knew it so well that he said, \"I'm gonna make sure I'm dead before this hits the bestseller list.\" So ...</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>You mean, he didn't want to publish during his own lifetime?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>This book was basically published on his deathbed.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Copernicus was 1600s?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Oh, 15.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>15? Okay.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Oh, yeah. 1543 I think was the pub date.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>So now what happens? So -- so now we're no longer -- humankind is no longer at the center of things. Now what?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Well, we're no longer at the center of the then-known universe.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Right.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>The then-known universe was the objects of the solar system, the planets. But you look up at the night sky beyond the planets, what do you see? Stars. There's stars in every direction. In fact, if you count how many stars are to your left, how many are to your right, how many are above and below -- it's about the same in every direction you look. Hey, maybe even if Earth is not the center of the solar system, the solar system is in the center of the rest of the universe.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Yeah.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Yeah. That's the ticket, okay? Now we can dig out of this hole that Copernicus put us in.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Yeah.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Let's go ahead and do that.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>So our group is king.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Oh yeah. Our little family of planets, we're in the center. And so that prevailed for a while, because it's a comforting concept not only for the public but for the scientists as well. It wasn't until the 1920s where Harlow Shapley, then head of Harvard College Observatory, noticed globular clusters. Those were more in one direction of the sky than the other.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Huh.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>And he deduced that these things ought to know where the center of the gravity is, rather than these measly handful of stars that are sitting in front of us around on the sky.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Oh, you mean these big, fat concentration of stars?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Big, fat, hundred thousand star beehive concentrations of stars. Star clusters. They ought to know where the center of the galaxy is, even if these single stars don't. And so he deduced that the center of the galaxy was off in the direction of Sagittarius on the sky, okay? So now people are fighting that, people are fighting that, but then all hell breaks loose because 1920s come in, Edwin Hubble grabs the business end of the biggest telescope of the day, and determines that these fuzzy things among the stars are not the same distance as the stars themselves. They're vastly farther away. In fact, you know, they kind of look like what this collection of stars might look like from afar. In fact, maybe they are other Milky Ways, maybe they are other galaxies, maybe we're not the whole story.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Oh boy.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Man.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Meanwhile, the sky keeps getting bigger and bigger and deeper and deeper and bigger and deeper and bigger and deeper. Yeah.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Man, oh this was terrible for the ego.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>I can tell you I'm disappointed myself.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Oh, man. And so now okay, maybe we're in the center of the -- that universe.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Yeah, let's hope for that.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Because we look this way, we see about the same number of galaxies this way as that way as that way as that way. Kind of looks like we're at the center. And they're all receding from us. So hey, we're at the center then. You know, but now we're smarter than this now. We're saying we're not gonna fall for that, okay? We've fallen for that one nine times already. We're not gonna fall for this again.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>You mean, somebody's sitting there in the corner thinking, \"Every time we make ourselves the star of the show, we're wrong.\"</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>We're wrong. So I'm -- we're not gonna make that mistake again. And so you then apply Einstein's general theory of relativity, and it says if you live in an expanding universe, in this fabric of space and time, no matter where you are it will look like you're at the center.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Which means what? There is no center?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Yes.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Every center is an illusion.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Yes. And so that's how we could look like we're at the center of the actual universe, even though we're not, because everybody sees the same signature of the expansion. Now there's an even stronger argument for -- than the numerics. Let's look at the ingredients of the human body. You learn from biology class we're mostly water.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Right.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>But what is water mostly?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Hydrogen and oxygen.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Hydrogen. Hydrogen and oxygen. Let's look in the cosmos. The number one ingredient in the cosmos is hydrogen. Next in the universe: Oxygen. Next on Earth and in life: Oxygen. Next in the universe: Carbon. Next in life: Carbon. Next in the universe: Nitrogen. Next in life: Nitrogen. One for one you go down the list. We are not simply in this universe, the universe is in us.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>So we're not the center of the universe, we are on the side. Then our gang is not the center of everything but it's just out on a wing, and then a galaxy that we're a part of is one of many. And the fact that we are alive is maybe not unique.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>I got something worse ...</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>How low can we go?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Oh, we can go lower. You ready?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Yeah.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>You want to go lower?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Yeah.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Okay. We may not even be the principal stuff of the universe. That's how insignificant we are, okay?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>What do you mean?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>We have learned the universe has this stuff that has gravity but doesn't otherwise interact with matter as we know it. It doesn't shine. It doesn't reflect. It doesn't block. It's dark. It's called dark matter.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>So how much of the universe is the stuff that we can either see or that is blocked but we can kind of detect?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Four percent.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>[laughs]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>[laughs]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>What are you talking about?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>I told you we're gonna sink low. You asked how low can we go?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>You mean, like, 96 percent of the universe is missing?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>96 percent of the universe is not us, it's something else.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Is it your working bias that if I came to you with a new discovery in which we were less important, or a discovery which proposed that we were more important that you would guess that my scientific discovery that said we are less important is more likely to be right?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>No doubt about it. That's correct. Now you cal that a bias, but I don't. I call that track record. [laughs]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>[laughs]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Okay? Track record. We have among our exhibits here, our timeline of the universe that begins with the Big Bang and you walk the equivalent length of 100 yards, and time goes by with every step you take. 70 million years depending on how long your legs are. 70 million years per step.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ROBERT: </em></strong><em><span>Yes.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: </em></strong><em><span>Per step. And you do that for a hundred yards. And you get near the bottom, it's a gently sloping ramp. You get to the bottom of the ramp, and then you're reminded that 65 million years ago the dinosaurs were roaming the Earth ready to become extinct. And then you take one more step on this ramp and you reach modern-day. Well, at the end of that ramp we have mounted a single strand of human hair. The left side of that hair, cavemen were drawing cave paintings. The right side of that hair is this conversation right now. So we are a speck on a speck on a speck on a speck.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>And the speck that you just heard talking, who is over six feet tall by the way, is Neil deGrasse Tyson, astrophysicist and director of the Hayden Planetarium in New York City.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>See that right there though, is why I think a lot of people don't like science. Because any time that anyone normal wants to say that we are important ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Mm-hmm.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>... there's some scientist in a corner who's yelling, \"Bah, that's just a speck!\"</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>That's, you know, science's preference, but I don't -- I think artists, Shakespeare for example, who says what a piece of work is man, how noble in reason and all. It seems like it's art's job to say that we are special, significant, glorious, and it's science's job to say, \"No, we're not.\"</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Right. Well -- well, maybe art is where we should go next. Stay with us. I'm Jad Abumrad.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>And I'm Robert Krulwich.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>And Radiolab will continue in a moment.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>BRITT: </em></strong><em><span>Hi, my name is Britt Vann and I live in Manhattan.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ERICA: </em></strong><em><span>My name is Erica Stisser and I live in Brooklyn. And we've been best friends since fifth grade. Radiolab supported in part by the National Science Foundation and by the Alfred P, Sloan Foundation.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>BRITT: </em></strong><em><span>Enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern worlds.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ERICA: </em></strong><em><span>More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>This is Radiolab. I'm Jad Abumrad.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>And I'm Robert Krulwich.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>And this hour on Radiolab we're looking at space. More specifically, our place in it, our place in the cosmos.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>It's big. We're little.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Yes. But since, as you mentioned before the break, sometimes artists have their own particular ways of tilting things back in our favor, let me introduce you to someone.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JAD: </em></strong><em><span>Introduce yourself.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>He's an artist.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>I'm Dario Robleto.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Dario Robleto.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>An artist. Live in San Antonio, Texas.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>I ran into Dario actually New York at the Whitney Museum. He was 27, and this was his first solo show.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>My first show here in New York, first solo show at the Whitney.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Sculpture, mostly. That's his main thing. But on a side wall, he was displaying some photographs.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JAD: </em></strong><em><span>So tell me what we're looking at.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Which I asked him to show me.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>It's a series of seven digital photographs framed on the wall.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Side by side, seven photos all showing the same thing.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>Tomato seeds.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Seeds.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>That are at different stages of blossoming.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Think back to kindergarten. That's what these remind you of. The day your teacher came in and said, \"Okay class, we're gonna grow some seeds.\" These pictures are of that day. But more specifically, the day the seeds actually grew. Because each photo -- and there are seven -- shows one seed, tiny little seed, poking its head out of a massive cup.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>So what I did was these are custom-made porcelain cups. If you can imagine the size of a Styrofoam cup.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Dario made the cups, put some dirt and a seed inside, and then crammed the top full of cotton.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>Cotton, which is also another schoolroom element.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Final step: When the seeds grew, like right at the moment that they grew, he snapped photos.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>They're -- each one's at a slightly different stage of development, but basically it's -- it's that moment when the leaves are pushing at -- like, you know, waking up from a long sleep, which that one kind of looks like yawning and your arms go up in the air. Also, I should point out that there's text printed right on the cups just as if, you know, a kid had written their name or something.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>In loopy cursive.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JAD: </em></strong><em><span>Can you read me the names of the people on there?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>Yeah. So we have M.J. Smith, F.R. Scobee, S.C. McAuliffe, J.A. Resnik ...</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Maybe you recognize those names, maybe not. But here's the backstory as Dario tells it. It's 1984. Everyone's excited about space, and NASA ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>NASA built this probe. It's called the LDEF. It stands for the Long Duration Environmental Facility.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>This was a probe that was basically meant to store things for long periods of time. So it had all these compartments.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>52 compartments, I believe. And NASA for the first time opened it to the public.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>It was brilliant PR. They said, \"Okay, America. We've got this probe with all these compartments. What would you like to send into space?\"</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>They kind of said, you send in a proposal for what you'd like to put on board ...</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>And we'll consider it. People of all stripes sent in ideas: Ant farms, paint samples, pond water.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>All the way to a group of school kids got together and said, \"Hey, can we put some seeds on board?\" So and NASA's, I think, seeing the great potential in what these children proposed, furthered the experiment a bit and put aboard a lot of seeds for the sole purpose that when they returned they would be redistributed to the classrooms as a cool, you know, space seed artifact.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>April 6, 1984, the probe filled with seeds and all kinds of things goes aboard the space shuttle.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>It goes aboard on the space shuttle Challenger.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Launches successfully.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>Probe is deployed from the Challenger, and it was scheduled to be picked up on the next shuttle mission by the Challenger. Well, the day on that pickup mission was the day the Challenger exploded.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, NASA: </em></strong><em><span>Coming up on the 30-second point in our countdown. T-minus 30 seconds and we have a go for outer sequence start. Four, three, two, one, and lift off! Lift off of the 25th space shuttle mission. And it has cleared the tower.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, NASA: </em></strong><em><span>Control. A major malfunction. The vehicle has exploded. Contingency procedures are in effect.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>In a flash, seven people were gone and America changed its mind about space.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>And the whole space program got put on hiatus for I think it was almost two years.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>And meanwhile, that little probe the Challenger had been on its way to get and which was only supposed to be up there for about nine months, well it stayed up there.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>This is a case where something literally got lost in space, because this is ...</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JAD: </em></strong><em><span>It was floating out there.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>This probe, designed for nine months, ends up sitting in orbit for almost seven years.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>January 19th, 1990, the probe is finally brought back after seven years by another space shuttle mission, this time without fanfare. Because all the kids that would have wanted those seeds were grown up. They didn't know or care anymore. And the only people that did were collectors, NASA geeks.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>And ...</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>And Dario ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>I was able to obtain some of those seeds that went aboard that day.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Through an online auction.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>Luckily, they were vacuum-sealed the whole time, but they were incredibly moody little seeds. They did not want to cooperate.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>He planted the seeds in the cotton-filled cups, and the seeds did break through the cotton like spaceships bursting through clouds. And right as they did, he snapped photos. But then days later, and suddenly, they all died. All of them.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>JAD: </em></strong><em><span>So none of these seeds are alive anymore?</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>No, and -- and I wanted them to, and like I said they just -- something just wasn't right anymore. I had originally, you know, wanted to take them to full bloom. It just -- it wasn't meant to be. But getting it here was quite a miracle. So I'll take this -- this stage.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>If you willfully invest in the illusion of a photograph as Dario does, this stage means that the seeds and everything they represent, the lives of the crew, the hope of a class of schoolkids, is frozen.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>Alive again, forever.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Forever. Then again, this is just an art project. Sometimes reality doesn't cooperate, because here's the sad coda to the story. It turns out the shuttle that picked up the probe in 1990 and brought it back was the Columbia. And just before Dario was preparing to show his pictures ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>Just by coincidence, I had the photographs laid out in front of me going over some framing issues when the tragedy was first reported that morning.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>NEWS CLIP: </em></strong><em><span>We are breaking in with sad news this morning. The space shuttle Columbia has been seen apparently breaking up in the skies over Texas as it returned to Earth shortly after 9:00 a.m. Eastern time this morning. Search and rescue teams are reported ...]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>DARIO ROBLETO: </em></strong><em><span>To know suddenly the only two shuttles that these seeds ever had anything to do with were the two that we lost, it really hit me hard.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Dario Robleto's an artist. Lives in San Antonio, Texas.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Nobody promised that space travel would be safe or pleasant or easy or even rewarding. All that was promised was that it would be an adventure, and sometimes we were in the mood and sometimes we weren't.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Well, Anne Druyan, Carl Sagan's widow who began the show, she remembers what it was like at the very beginning.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ANNIE DRUYAN: </em></strong><em><span>President Kennedy, 1962, makes a speech which if you read about it in Herodotus, you know, that some Persian king decreed that we would walk on the moon.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, John F. Kennedy: </em></strong><em><span>We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ANNIE DRUYAN: </em></strong><em><span>It was the stuff of dreams.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, John F. Kennedy: </em></strong><em><span>We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we're willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong><em>ANNIE DRUYAN: </em></strong><em><span>Now of course, it was in reality part of the worst part of the Cold War and the madness of the nuclear arms race, but it brought out the very best in a whole bunch of people. And I remember feeling in first walking on the moon, when Americans first walked on the moon, you know, I was enraged at my government's conduct in the world, horrified by it. But I had to admit that it made me really proud. And then as soon as NASA became involved with the space shuttle, we lost the grand purpose. And it was very much to me as a mother of two children, remembering when they were young that when they would -- were toddlers and they were first learning to walk, they would run away from me and encounter some frightening reality 10, 12 feet away and then turn around and come running back to be around my ankles. And that's what the last 25 years of the space program has been like. A kind of retreat to our mother's skirts.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Yeah, according to Annie Druyan, somewhere around the space shuttle we lost our nerve.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Yeah, although there is now a new generation of people who would be space explorers and who say in the loud as possible way, \"We don't want to be sissies in space anymore.\"</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Peter Diamandis: </em></strong><em><span>But of course, we've thought about the government always as the person taking us there.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Take this guy.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Peter Diamandis: </em></strong><em><span>But I put forward here the government is not going to get us there. The government is unable to take the risks required to open up this precious frontier. The shuttle's costing a billion dollars a launch. That's a pathetic number! That's unreasonable.</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>That was Peter Diamandis. Remember him?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Mm-mm.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>The guy who offered the X Prize?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>NEWS CLIP: </em></strong><em><span>The X Prize.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>NEWS CLIP: </em></strong><em><span>The X Prize. A global contest to build the first commercially-manned spaceship.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>That space prize?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD:</strong><span> Right.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>He was at a conference in Oxford in England called TED Global. It was an audience filled with entrepreneurs and technologists and he said to them, \"You know why I created this prize? You know what's really gonna get people interested in space, exploring space, taking risks in space again?\"</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Peter Diamandis: </em></strong><em><span>As we go forward ...]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>And here his instinct is kind of different from Annie Druyan's. What's gonna bring people back to space, he says ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Peter Diamandis: </em></strong><em><span>Is wealth.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Money.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Peter Diamandis: </em></strong><em><span>In fact, the greatest wealth. If you think about these other asteroids ...]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Wealth? Asteroids?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Think how much you could make if you could own an asteroid.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Peter Diamandis: </em></strong><em><span>There's a class of the nickel iron which in platinum group metals markets alone are worth something like $20-trillion if you can go out and grab one of these rocks. And my plan is actually buy puts on the precious metal market and then actually claim that I'm gonna go out and get one. That will fund the actual mission to go and get one.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Hold on. What are -- what a puts?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>That's what you do to finance grabbing one of those rocks, as he puts it.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>[laughs]</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>But the key here remember is that you got to create a business. And to do that you need a business plan, some reason to invest and build and do. For that he has actually kind of a cool phrase.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Peter Diamandis: </em></strong><em><span>So we need what I call an exothermic economic reaction in space.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Which in ordinary English means that there's got to be some way to get entrepreneurs to spend money, their own money, on some kind of space stuff.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>And how, exactly?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Well, his first notion was he would sell tickets to rich billionaires. He sold a seat on the Russian space shuttle, the Soyuz, for $20-million.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Peter Diamandis: </em></strong><em><span>$20-million.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>What?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Peter Diamandis: </em></strong><em><span>Under -- that is -- it is expensive, but people are willing to pay that.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Not any people I know.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Well -- but [laughs]. Yeah, I guess you're not gonna get a whole lot of people at prices like that.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Uh-uh.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>So then he came up with a bigger, bolder, broader plan, which was a prize.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>A prize?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Because remember when Charles Lindbergh flew across the Atlantic?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>No, I don't remember. I wasn't born yet.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>[laughs] Lindbergh crossed the Atlantic to win a prize.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>That's really why he crossed? Seriously?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Yeah, for a cash prize.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Huh.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Peter thought, \"Why don't I create a prize of my own?\" And he came up with the number 10 million bucks. That would be the prize.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Why $10 million, exactly?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Because it was just big enough to be really attractive to young scientific teams all over the world, $10-million, and just small enough to be boring to conservative, clunky companies like Lockheed and Boeing who wouldn't ever think of anything interesting, anyway.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>He was trying to split the difference, I guess.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Yeah. But, you know, Peter doesn't have that kind of money. He's not a government. So where do you get $10-million?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Peter Diamandis: </em></strong><em><span>Probably the most difficult thing that I had to do was raise the capital for this, I went to a hundred, 200 CEOs, CMOS, no one believed it was done. Everyone said, \"Well, what does NASA think?\" \"Well, people are gonna die. How can you possibly put this forward?\" And what I ended up doing was going out to the insurance industry and buying a hole-in-one insurance policy.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>You know how rare it is to hit a hole-in-one on a golf course?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Yeah.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Well, the insurance industry will make you a betting proposition. If you go to the insurance company and say, \"I bet that I can go up and down in space twice in the same two-week period,\" and they go, \"No, you can't,\" and you say, \"Well, I'll give you a million dollars in premiums if you give me a $10-million insurance policy.\" He made the offer, the insurance company said, \"Well, this isn't gonna happen,\" right?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Peter Diamandis: </em></strong><em><span>See, the insurance companies went to Boeing and Lockheed and said, \"Are you gonna compete?\" No. \"Are you gonna compete?\" No. So no one's gonna win this thing. So they took a bet that no one would win by January of '05 and I took a bet that someone would win.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>And amazingly ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>NEWS CLIP: </em></strong><em><span>Today, pilot Mike Melville made aviation history.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>... just two months before the deadline ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>NEWS CLIP: </em></strong><em><span>The privately-funded rocket plane Spaceship One ...]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>NEWS CLIP: </em></strong><em><span>... flew to the edge of space in a privately-funded vehicle.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Peter Diamandis: </em></strong><em><span>So -- and -- and the best thing is they paid off and the check didn't bounce.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Plus, he got tons of publicity. He incentivized young scientists all over the world. He did it with other people's money. But then just as he was finishing the presentation, there was this guy in the room who got up and said ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, audience member: </em></strong><em><span>I almost wasn't going to ask this because I didn't want to end on a negative note.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Said, \"You know, Peter Diamandis, maybe you're not that brilliant. Maybe all you are is lucky.\"</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, audience member: </em></strong><em><span>By encouraging innovation so effectively, you are encouraging risk-taking.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Peter Diamandis: </em></strong><em><span>Yes.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, audience member: </em></strong><em><span>And it is inevitable that sooner or later there will be deaths ...]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Peter Diamandis: </em></strong><em><span>Yes!]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, audience member: </em></strong><em><span>... as a result of this.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Peter Diamandis: </em></strong><em><span>Absolutely.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, audience member: </em></strong><em><span>And you're also ...]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[Audience laughs]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>That was a little too enthusiastic.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Yeah.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, audience member: </em></strong><em><span>You've also made a very coherent explanation of why frankly in PR terms, investing in prizes is very, very good value because you get a vast amount of publicity and you're assuming it's all good publicity. But I can just see the -- again, the U.S. broadcast media and the British press media ripping you to shreds because you've encouraged lots of innocent young 25 year olds from Romania and Argentina and whatever to kill themselves.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Peter Diamandis: </em></strong><em><span>Quick answer.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, audience member: </em></strong><em><span>Okay.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, Peter Diamandis: </em></strong><em><span>Well, it's an important answer. Guys, I'm gonna take my hat on as an American. I am thankful that 500 years ago, thousands of people gave their lives to cross the Atlantic and explore the Americas. And I'm thankful that -- that 200 years ago they crossed the Great Plains. No one has the right to say for my children and their children that we shouldn't take the risk now to open these frontiers. And if it's up to the individual to risk their life, so be it.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[Audience applauds]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Yeah, but that's -- that's -- that was a cop-out answer, I have to say. Because when those people he's referring to, the people who crossed the Atlantic, crossed the plains, when they did all those things and then when many of them died, I mean thousands of -- I don't know how many.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Thousands, I'm sure.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Anyway, but when they died, those early Americans, they died alone. There were no TV cameras around, there was no Scott Simon on the radio. They were by themselves.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>I think you're right.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>It was a completely different time.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>When you make it sensational, people will die sensationally. And then what's gonna happen to the money and the entrepreneurs and the businessmen?</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Right. That's exactly right.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Businessmen don't exactly have a sterling reputation for sticking by their guns. If you have a small financial problem showing up in Brazil, people all over the world pull their money out of Brazil. You get a total rush for the exits. Total collapse.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>It's true, they're always the first to leave. You know, money and wealth, it's good motivators to get us back to space, but once you get there, it's got to be about something more than that.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Like what, though? Because I agree with you, it's just ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Well, it's -- I don't even know what to call it, exactly. But you certainly hear it. Take the last transmissions from the moon in December of 1972.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Uh-huh. Oh, last time we were there.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Yeah, the last time we were there. The voices you hear of those astronauts coming back, when you hear them talking ...</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, NASA: </em></strong><em><span>Ignition sequence. All engines are started.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>You hear something else.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, NASA: </em></strong><em><span>Two, one, zero, We have a lift-off. We have a lift-off and it's lighting up the areas. It's just like daylight here at Kennedy Space Center. The Saturn V is moving off the pad.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, astronaut: </em></strong><em><span>We're right over South America and of course we can see up the Gulf Coast, and it looks like Houston's covered with clouds.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, astronaut: </em></strong><em><span>Hey, I just saw a flash on the lunar surface. Just a pinprick of light.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, astronaut: </em></strong><em><span>Okay, I got the landing site. We're right over the top of it.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, NASA: </em></strong><em><span>Challenger, you're go for landing.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, astronaut: </em></strong><em><span>Oh, are we coming in. Oh, baby. Stand by for touchdown. 10 feet.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, astronaut: </em></strong><em><span>Got contact. Okay, Houston, the Challenger has landed.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, NASA: </em></strong><em><span>Roger, Challenger. That's super.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, astronaut: </em></strong><em><span>Houston, you can tell America that Challenger is at Taurus Littrow.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, astronaut: </em></strong><em><span>I'd like to dedicate these first steps of Apollo 17 to all those who made it possible. I'm out here. Oh, my golly! Unbelievable. Just walk around for one second.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, astronaut: </em></strong><em><span>[singing] I was strolling on the moon one day, in the merry, merry month of December.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, astronaut: </em></strong><em><span>No, May.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, astronaut: </em></strong><em><span>May.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, astronaut: </em></strong><em><span>Hey, there he is. It's all over.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, astronaut: </em></strong><em><span>Hey, it is! I can see it from here! Orange!]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>ARCHIVE CLIP, astronaut: </em></strong><em><span>Here man completed his first exploration of the moon. December, 1972 A.D. And if we leave the moon at Taurus Littrow, we leave as we came and God willing as we shall return, with peace and hope for all mankind. Godspeed the crew of Apollo 17.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>The Last Transmission From the Moon, produced by Barrett Golding for HearingVoices.com. Thanks to him. If you want to hear that again or anything else in the program again, visit our website, Radiolab.org. We are now podcasting. Oh, and also on our website there are a couple of things which didn't make it into the program today, little space capsules.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>Little artsy little compositions, yes.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Yes, so famous people saying what they would send into space. I know they're your favorite. You can find it Radiolab.org. And last but not least, if you want to send us email, [email protected] is the address. I'm Jad Abumrad.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>ROBERT: </strong><span>And I'm Robert Krulwich.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><strong>JAD: </strong><span>Thanks for listening.</span></p>\r\n<p> </p>\r\n<p><em><span>[</span></em><strong><em>KATHLEEN: </em></strong><em><span>I'm Kathleen Kasual, and I'm calling from Brussels, Belgium. Radiolab is created by Jad Abumrad with Robert Krulwich and produced by Soren Wheeler. Dylan Keefe is our Director of Sound Design. Suzie Lechtenberg is our Executive Producer. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Becca Bressler, Rachael Cusick, David Gebel, Bethel Habte, Tracie Hunte, Matt Kielty, Annie McEwen, Latif Nasser, Sarah Qari, Arianne Wack, Pat Walters and Molly Webster. With help from Shima Oliaee, W. Harry Fortuna, Sarah Sandbach, Malissa O'Donnell, Tad Davis and Russell Gragg. Our fact-checker is Michelle Harris.]</span></em></p>\r\n<p><em><span>Copyright © 2020 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website <a href=\"https://www.wnyc.org/terms/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" data-auth=\"NotApplicable\">terms of use</a> at <a href=\"http://www.wnyc.org/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" data-auth=\"NotApplicable\">www.wnyc.org</a> for further information.</span></em></p>\r\n<p><em><span> </span></em></p>\r\n<p><em><span>New York Public Radio <span data-markjs=\"true\" data-ogac=\"\" data-ogab=\"\" data-ogsc=\"\" data-ogsb=\"\">transcript</span>s are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.</span></em></p>\r\n<p><strong>-30-</strong></p>\r\n<p> </p>",
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