diff --git a/backend/FwLite/LcmCrdt/CrdtMiniLcmApi.cs b/backend/FwLite/LcmCrdt/CrdtMiniLcmApi.cs
index a3e6716ec..69fbf734a 100644
--- a/backend/FwLite/LcmCrdt/CrdtMiniLcmApi.cs
+++ b/backend/FwLite/LcmCrdt/CrdtMiniLcmApi.cs
@@ -355,15 +355,11 @@ private IEnumerable<IChange> CreateEntryChanges(Entry entry, Dictionary<Guid, Se
                 sense.PartOfSpeechId = partOfSpeech.Id;
                 sense.PartOfSpeech = partOfSpeech.Name["en"] ?? string.Empty;
             }
-            if (sense.Order != default) // we don't anticipate this being necessary, so we'll be strict for now
-                throw new InvalidOperationException("Order should not be provided when creating a sense");
             sense.Order = senseOrder++;
             yield return new CreateSenseChange(sense, entry.Id);
             var exampleOrder = 1;
             foreach (var exampleSentence in sense.ExampleSentences)
             {
-                if (exampleSentence.Order != default) // we don't anticipate this being necessary, so we'll be strict for now
-                    throw new InvalidOperationException("Order should not be provided when creating an example sentence");
                 exampleSentence.Order = exampleOrder++;
                 yield return new CreateExampleSentenceChange(exampleSentence, sense.Id);
             }
@@ -379,8 +375,6 @@ await dataModel.AddChanges(ClientId,
             ..await entry.Senses.ToAsyncEnumerable()
                 .SelectMany((s, i) =>
                 {
-                    if (s.Order != default) // we don't anticipate this being necessary, so we'll be strict for now
-                        throw new InvalidOperationException("Order should not be provided when creating a sense");
                     s.Order = i + 1;
                     return CreateSenseChanges(entry.Id, s);
                 })
@@ -486,8 +480,6 @@ private async IAsyncEnumerable<IChange> CreateSenseChanges(Guid entryId, Sense s
         var exampleOrder = 1;
         foreach (var exampleSentence in sense.ExampleSentences)
         {
-            if (exampleSentence.Order != default) // we don't anticipate this being necessary, so we'll be strict for now
-                throw new InvalidOperationException("Order should not be provided when creating an example sentence");
             exampleSentence.Order = exampleOrder++;
             yield return new CreateExampleSentenceChange(exampleSentence, sense.Id);
         }
@@ -500,16 +492,15 @@ private async IAsyncEnumerable<IChange> CreateSenseChanges(Guid entryId, Sense s
             .ThenLoad(s => s.ExampleSentences)
             .AsQueryable()
             .SingleOrDefaultAsync(e => e.Id == entryId);
-        return entry?.Senses.FirstOrDefault(s => s.Id == id);
+        var sense = entry?.Senses.FirstOrDefault(s => s.Id == id);
+        sense?.ApplySortOrder();
+        return sense;
     }
 
     public async Task<Sense> CreateSense(Guid entryId, Sense sense, BetweenPosition? between = null)
     {
-        if (sense.Order != default) // we don't anticipate this being necessary, so we'll be strict for now
-            throw new InvalidOperationException("Order should not be provided when creating a sense");
-
-        sense.Order = await OrderPicker.PickOrder(Senses.Where(s => s.EntryId == entryId), between);
         await validators.ValidateAndThrow(sense);
+        sense.Order = await OrderPicker.PickOrder(Senses.Where(s => s.EntryId == entryId), between);
         await dataModel.AddChanges(ClientId, await CreateSenseChanges(entryId, sense).ToArrayAsync());
         return await dataModel.GetLatest<Sense>(sense.Id) ?? throw new NullReferenceException();
     }
@@ -558,9 +549,6 @@ public async Task<ExampleSentence> CreateExampleSentence(Guid entryId,
         BetweenPosition? between = null)
     {
         await validators.ValidateAndThrow(exampleSentence);
-        if (exampleSentence.Order != default) // we don't anticipate this being necessary, so we'll be strict for now
-            throw new InvalidOperationException("Order should not be provided when creating an example sentence");
-
         exampleSentence.Order = await OrderPicker.PickOrder(ExampleSentences.Where(s => s.SenseId == senseId), between);
         await dataModel.AddChange(ClientId, new CreateExampleSentenceChange(exampleSentence, senseId));
         return await dataModel.GetLatest<ExampleSentence>(exampleSentence.Id) ?? throw new NullReferenceException();
diff --git a/backend/FwLite/LcmCrdt/QueryHelpers.cs b/backend/FwLite/LcmCrdt/QueryHelpers.cs
index ae07b18d6..3e76c9a3e 100644
--- a/backend/FwLite/LcmCrdt/QueryHelpers.cs
+++ b/backend/FwLite/LcmCrdt/QueryHelpers.cs
@@ -7,11 +7,16 @@ public static void ApplySortOrder(this Entry entry)
         entry.Senses.ApplySortOrder();
         foreach (var sense in entry.Senses)
         {
-            sense.ExampleSentences.ApplySortOrder();
+            sense.ApplySortOrder();
         }
     }
 
-    public static void ApplySortOrder<T>(this List<T> items) where T : IOrderable
+    public static void ApplySortOrder(this Sense sense)
+    {
+        sense.ExampleSentences.ApplySortOrder();
+    }
+
+    private static void ApplySortOrder<T>(this List<T> items) where T : IOrderable
     {
         items.Sort((x, y) =>
         {